Johanna Hecht (1877-1929)

[Werner52]

Thomas, I can't find Leo in the Gdansk population registers / residents registration files

Take a look here.

Maybe you could check there yourself again.

[hehesani]

Just to come back to my theory of Johanne Christiane Hecht, born November 3rd, 1874, possibly being the one you're looking for ...

On October 25th, 1881 there is a Hermann Schubert born at Hasserode. As far as I can see his mother's name is "Johanne Christiane geb. Hecht". Father is Andreas Heinrich Schubert. This would be another possible connection with the names Schubert and Hecht. The couple might have got married (civil ceremony) between November 1874 and 1881.

https://www.archion.de/p/d1c844de19/

Please someone check whether I read the last name of the mother correctly.

Greetings and sorry to be such a pain in the neck with this theory ...,
Christine

[TG23]

Hello,

According to the marriage certificate of Wilhelm Leo von Duehren he was baptized as mennonite.

[Brinch1984]

Thomas, I can't find Leo in the Gdansk population registers / residents registration files

Take a look here.

Maybe you could check there yourself again.

Hi Werner,

Thank you for directing my attention towards this resource. I was not aware of this register. Having gone through it, I have immediate found Wilhelm Leo's paternal grandparents Gustav Robert and Jeanette (née von Steen) here: https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/de/jednostka/-/jednostka/22125536?_Jednostka_delta=1&_Jednostka_resetCur=fa lse&_Jednostka_cur=174

Wilhelm Leo's father, Carl Franz, is also mentioned here.

I cannot find Wilhelm Leo here, as you also say. I do, however, have documentation from his birth and baptism linking him to Danzig in 1878 and 1895. See the attached photos (the entry from his birth is essentially destroyed, but you can deduce enough information to confirm that it is him).

Best,

Thomas

[Brinch1984]

Just to come back to my theory of Johanne Christiane Hecht, born November 3rd, 1874, possibly being the one you're looking for ...

On October 25th, 1881 there is a Hermann Schubert born at Hasserode. As far as I can see his mother's name is "Johanne Christiane geb. Hecht". Father is Andreas Heinrich Schubert. This would be another possible connection with the names Schubert and Hecht. The couple might have got married (civil ceremony) between November 1874 and 1881.

https://www.archion.de/p/d1c844de19/

Please someone check whether I read the last name of the mother correctly.

Greetings and sorry to be such a pain in the neck with this theory ...,
Christine

Interesting coincedence. However, somewhat strange if Johanne is born Hecht and is connected to the Johanna in question, especially if the father is also named Hecht. It sounds... incestuous. Not unheard, not at all, but strange. Do not apologize for your hypothesis. Still, much better and relevant compared to where I have gotten to. Greatly appreciated.

[hehesani]

Interesting coincedence. However, somewhat strange if Johanne is born Hecht and is connected to the Johanna in question, especially if the father is also named Hecht. It sounds... incestuous. Not unheard, not at all, but strange.

@Thomas:
What I think might have happened:
Johanne Christiane Hecht has an illegitimate daughter Johanne Christiane in November 1874. A few years later she marries Andreas Heinrich Schubert in a civil ceremony, so no church record.
Johanne Christiane jr., the unwanted illegitimate child, leaves Wernigerode-Hasselrode sometime before 1899 and goes WHERE? Maybe to Berlin where she could have met her future husband?
When the two get married in New York rather than admitting that she was born illegitimate, she gives as a father her grandfather's name "Carl Hecht" and as mother her mother's married name "Johanna Schubert". She does not even make herself any younger, as others might have done so they would not be older than their husbands. In her marriage certificate and in the passenger list her age is 25, so a birth year of approx. 1875.

@Werner: The sources you know are just great!!!

Greetings, Christine

[Brinch1984]

@Thomas:
What I think might have happened:
Johanne Christiane Hecht has an illegitimate daughter Johanne Christiane in November 1874. A few years later she marries Andreas Heinrich Schubert in a civil ceremony, so no church record.
Johanne Christiane jr., the unwanted illegitimate child, leaves Wernigerode-Hasselrode sometime before 1899 and goes WHERE? Maybe to Berlin where she could have met her future husband?
When the two get married in New York rather than admitting that she was born illegitimate, she gives as a father her grandfather's name "Carl Hecht" and as mother her mother's married name "Johanna Schubert". She does not even make herself any younger, as others might have done so they would not be older than their husbands. In her marriage certificate and in the passenger list her age is 25, so a birth year of approx. 1875.

@Werner: The sources you know are just great!!!

Greetings, Christine

I think, this is a very plausible and in no way a farfetched hypothesis. It makes a lot of sense, also considering how I have seen somewhat similar examples in Denmark. In addition, it provides an explanation for, why I cannot find documentation in a country, where documentation is otherwise diligently collected, stored, and made available.

It does somewhat make me sad that I cannot get additional certainty, but maybe someday.

Thank you Christine and Werner -- great job; highly appreciated.

[Brinch1984]

I am expecting digital copies (any minute) from the Wernigerode City Archives containing documentation of a Johanne Hecht, born in Hasserode in 1874 as well as for her brother, Wilhelm. For Wilhelm, the City Archives has birth, death, and marriage certificates. I have also inquired about, whether they have any documentation about migration. I will share it, once I have it in my possession.

[Werner52]

Thomas, I had talked to Christine about Johanna Hecht and her mother. We are certain
that the Schubert-Hecht couple did not have a church wedding. This means that Johanna Schubert from the address book must be the mother of Johanna (Christina) Hecht, who was born in Hasserode in 1874.

It should therefore be worthwhile to research the people Christine found in more detail. By that I mean the church records from Archion and, if possible, other documents from the Wernigerode city archives - that's your job.

Another option would be to check the population registers / residents registration files of the city of Frankfurt am Main. However, as with so many German cities, many documents were destroyed during World War II. Only about half of the registration records kept between 1868 and 1932 have been preserved. Nevertheless, it is worth trying to search for a Johanna Hecht stayed there before May 1900. I would only search for a birth year between 1870 and 1882 and without a birthplace.

https://www.stadtgeschichte-ffm.de/de/archivbesuch/archivnutzung/familienforschung

Maybe you'll be lucky and she gave her “real date of birth” there.

[Brinch1984]

Thomas, I had talked to Christine about Johanna Hecht and her mother. We are certain
that the Schubert-Hecht couple did not have a church wedding. This means that Johanna Schubert from the address book must be the mother of Johanna (Christina) Hecht, who was born in Hasserode in 1874.

It should therefore be worthwhile to research the people Christine found in more detail. By that I mean the church records from Archion and, if possible, other documents from the Wernigerode city archives - that's your job.

Another option would be to check the population registers / residents registration files of the city of Frankfurt am Main. However, as with so many German cities, many documents were destroyed during World War II. Only about half of the registration records kept between 1868 and 1932 have been preserved. Nevertheless, it is worth trying to search for a Johanna Hecht stayed there before May 1900. I would only search for a birth year between 1870 and 1882 and without a birthplace.

https://www.stadtgeschichte-ffm.de/de/archivbesuch/archivnutzung/familienforschung

Maybe you'll be lucky and she gave her “real date of birth” there.

Hi Werner and Christine,

Thank you very much for the effort and your time looking into and discussing theories. It is greatly appreciated.

I have received a response from the Wernigerode City Archives, and if you are correct in your theory, that might be a dead end. I upload all of the information here for your scrutiny and curiosity. It contains the information found on a Johanne Hecht in Hasserode as well as her brother, Wilhelm, whom there is much more information about. In addition, there is also information about Johanne Christine and others. I hope, you will have fun looking through all of it.

Just a disclaimer; I have not yet had the time to go through the documentation.

I will however, one of the next days, as well as read through your theory. I am very excited to do so, but I am currently alone with my daughter.

I look forward to spending more time on this as well as hearing your take.

Best,

Thomas

[Werner52]

Thomas,

thank you very much for the documents from the Wernigerode City Archives!

A brief summary:

Carl Hecht, * 19.6.1814 Hasserode, + between 3.1878-1893, worker in Hasserode, oo 8.9.1839 Hasserode, (Marie) Friederike König, * 1.9.1808 Hasserode, 1893: widow in Hasserode, Friedrichstr. 140
children:

Johanna/e Christina/e Hecht, * 3.12.1851 Hasserode, 1893: widow in Hasserode, Friedrichstr. 140, 1906: widow in Hasserode, Stillewasser 4, oo civil-marriage in Hasserode between 1878-1881, (Andreas) Heinrich Schubert, * 21.12.1856 Hasserode, + 11.4.1892 Hasserode, son of Heinrich Gottlieb Jakob Schubert and Johanne Charlotte Karoline Bücking.
children:

(illegitimate) Johanna (Christina) Hecht, * 2.11.1874 Hasserode, protestant, 1890: by her mother in Hasseroda, Friedrichstr. 140.

(illegitimate) Wilhelm Hecht, * 12.3.1878 Hasserode, + 8.5.1958 Wernigerode, protestant, 1890: by his mother in Hasseroda, Friedrichstr. 140, 1903: worker in Wernigerorde, 1906: worker in Weringerode, Große Dammstr. 5, 1936: molder in Wernigerorde, Schloßstr. 17, 1958: Wernigerode, Klara Zetkin Str. 17, ooI. 23.3.1903 Wernigerode, Johanne Heise, * 15.1.1889 Wernigerode, + 2.11.1933 Wernigerode, 1903: cigar maker, ooII. 31.3.1936 Wernigerode, (Martha Louise) Frieda Kalkbrenner born Husarzewsky, * 29.11.1882 Halle an der Saale, + 4.5.1946 Wernigerode, 1936: Wernigerode, Promenade 15.
Children:

child, + before 1958
child, + before 1958
Lisbeth Hecht, oo Vollmer.

Hermann Schubert, * 25.10.1881, protestant, 1890: by his mother in Hasseroda, Friedrichstr. 140

As you already suspected, unfortunately the documents do not immediately help us with our research into your Johanna Hecht.

But did you even receive an answer to the most important question from the Wernigerode City Archives?

Is there a birth certificate for Johanna Hecht, born between November 30 and December 6, 1877, available from the Hasserode or Wernigerode registry office?

[hehesani]

(Andreas) Heinrich Schubert, + between 1890-1893

Andreas Heinrich Schubert, son of Heinrich Gottlieb Jakob Schubert and Johanne Charlotte Karoline Bücking, born December 21st, 1856 [on ancestry] and died April 11th, 1892 [on archion].

The census record you found fits the family exactly - but ofcourse, we don't have any document that really proves that Johanne Hecht left home after 1890 and where she went.

Greetings, Christine

[Werner52]

Christine,

thank you for your additional information.

I have no knowledge of family research in New York around 1900 - it hasn't come up yet.

That's why I'm so surprised that it seems you could get married there without presenting any documents.

So you could simply tell the official that your name was Hans Müller, born in Berlin in 1874, and your bride was perhaps Maria Hofmann, born in Hamburg in 1876, and you would have a new identity based on the marriage certificate that was then issued.

Unbelievable!

[Brinch1984]

Once again, thank you both.

Somewhat discouraging but that genealogy research in it essence. Thank you for your hard work. Despite the not-so-positive news, it is good to have clarity on this exact individual.

To your question: "Is there a birth certificate for Johanna Hecht, born between November 30 and December 6, 1877, available from the Hasserode or Wernigerode registry office", I have indeed received a response from the Wernigerode City Archives. The reply, verbatim, is:

"Regarding your inquiry, I must inform you that we did not find a birth certificate for Johanne Hecht in the year 1877. The only Hecht born in 1877 was Auguste. We found a Johanne Hecht who was born in Hasserode in 1874. It's possible that it could be the same person."

I have been revisiting other documentation, I have found throughout my research process. Here, most documents point towards Johanne being 25 years in 1900; i.e., born in 1874/1875. One document is of course the marriage certificate previously shared, but also passenger manifests indicate this similarly (please see below). 1875'ish was also my working hypothesis prior to speaking to living descendant in the U.S.

It does not provide any certainty, but increasingly confusion. Maybe I will never get clarity, but the conundrum is nevertheless puzzling.

As mentioned above, I have an old passenger manifest (in addition to the marriage certificate), which indicates that Johanna/e is 25 years old in 1900; i.e., born in 1874/1875. I have appended the passenger manifest to this post. What is also interesting is that Johanna/e and Wilhelm Leo is mentioned on the same page, but not in conjunction. Johanna/e in mentioned as #11 on the left side and (Wilhelm) Leo on the right side as number 3.

I am not aware how to proceed from here, but hopefully I will find a way.

Best,

Thomas

[Gastonian]

I have no knowledge of family research in New York around 1900 - it hasn't come up yet.

That's why I'm so surprised that it seems you could get married there without presenting any documents.

So you could simply tell the official that your name was Hans Müller, born in Berlin in 1874, and your bride was perhaps Maria Hofmann, born in Hamburg in 1876, and you would have a new identity based on the marriage certificate that was then issued.

Unbelievable!

Hi Werner:

Absolutely believable! Because around 1900 in most areas in the U.S. there did not yet exist a civil registration of births, there was no such thing as a uniform requirement for a "Geburtsurkunde" (birth certificate) for a marriage. So yes, when you presented yourself at a civil registry office for marriage, you merely stated your name and age and gave an oath that those were correct, but there was no verification. In my research I have come across numerous cases around 1900 where underage persons (girls age 15 or 16 with their boyfriends) simply went several counties away, where they were not known, gave a false age (i.e., at least age 18 for the girl and 21 for the boy), and were married. There absolutely was no such thing as a "Sammelakte", or collection of documents pertaining to the marrying persons, as known in Germany (and other European countries).

In this particular case - absolutely yes, no verification of indicated parents at the marriage; the officials simply took the statement made by the marrying couple as fact (and in this particular case, because both marrying people said that they were of age, there was no need to obtain consent from the parents).

In general it must be remembered that the U.S. was far less bureaucratic than Germany until the 1930s, which is when Social Security (i.e., governmental old age pension system) was introduced and the federal government started requiring verification of identity to enroll in the system. At that point (in the 1930s) many Americans obtained "delayed birth certificates", i.e., certificates of their birth decades before based upon witness testimony, school records, and other documents.

--Carl-Henry