Kowalsker, Ort oder Nachname?

[josemarcosr]

Hello, I come with another question, I would like to know what the word Kowalsker refers to in this context.

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I understand that the question could well go to the Help with reading texts section but I already made a question there about this record about symbols and letters, but what I am most interested with this is the issue of the word Kowalsker and I feel for that is needed more a specific historical/geographical knowledge about the Posen region.

Symbol references (1, 2, 3, etc) in the attached image.

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Record:
Wladyslawow 1776-1794
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/...214fa38ffce083 9c1866481c790f
Scan 117
(Page 252)

Text:
1792 (year)
January 11 Bab. (Babiak). Xstian Hilscher (1*, 2*, 3*) Kowalsker (5*) (6*) An. Cath. Budzihnin (2*) Maliniec

Christian Hilscher & Anna Catharina Butzin
These are a couple of my ancestors who lived in Maliniec.

Possible meaning of the symbols:

1 = I don't know, husband?
2 = Location indicator
3 = g. geboren?
4 = Kowalsker
5 = H.?, Holedry?
6 = j, jungfrau?

2* = They always use this symbol to denote the place of marriage/baptism or origin of the husband (I understand that it only shows the origin of some husbands, it never shows the origin of the wives, so the town at the end was the place where the marriage take place I think.

The format according to me is:
Day, Month, Parish circle, Husband, (optional: origin of husband), Wife, Place of event

*Wladyslawow circles at that time were Babiak, Grabina, Luschne, etc.
For example: Maliniec was a town within the Babiak circle in the parish of Wladyslawow.
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So, then what is "Kowalsker"?

I have 3 possible theories:

1. It's a place.
2. Other theories.

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1. It's a place.

This is based on what I said before, I understand that evidently that symbol implied what followed always would be a geographical place.

But what geographical location could it be?
Let's remember that many of the Germans in those communities were recent arrivals, the Germans began to arrive with strong to those places between 1780-1800, most were from areas further north in the Posen region, so pomeranians, source: Breyer Map 1939.

Maliniec was founded around 1780.

So, like the entire tide of Germans arriving there, it would be expected that Christian Hilscher came from some area near Posen like many other of my ancestors.

Well, I repeat myself (?), what place could it be?

Based on the SGGEE map, the "Gilly Map" of 1802 (very useful because it's indexed alphabetically).

https://www.sggee.org/research/gilly_maps/south_prussia_map.html

Index for the K:

https://www.sggee.org/research/gilly_maps/Gilley%20Index%20K.pdf

I found 2 or 3 possible places in the index.
1.1 Kowalskie, Pobiedziska, Posen
1.2 Kowalskie Romunki / Kowal, Wlocklawek, Kuyavian–Pomeranian Voivodeship
1.3 A place I don't know.

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1.1. Kowalskie, Pobiedziska (very close to Posen).

Kowalskie on Google Maps:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/9uQ4MGE4YbZZ83f16

a. This place seems particularly promising to me because it coincides with the places of origin of the Germans who settled there.

b. I have ancestors who came from very close to Kowalskie (the attached image can be seen in Kowalskie in context with some of the places I know where my ancestors lived before going to the Dabie area, Kolo).

c. This is a little more far-fetched but Hilscher (Hilszer/Hilczer in its Polish form) is an unusual surname, it mixes a lot with Hiller when you search it in indexes, but I have noticed through quick searches in Poznan Project, FamilySearch, etc that the area of Swarzędz (this place is considerably close to Kowalskie), Leszno, Rawicz, etc. there is a presence of Hilscher at that time (1790) so they could be hypothetical brothers or relatives of my Christian, I mention this c. point because it's one of the few areas that I found Hilscher in the Posen region.

This orientation towards Saxony coincides a little with the fact that when I look for Hilscher's from the 1600s they are usually from Saxony, there could even be an orientation towards that, but that is a very different topic that clearly escapes what the word "Kowalsker" can resolve.

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1.2 Kowalskie Romunki / Kowal, Wlocklawek, Kuyavian-Pomeranian Voivodeship

I don't know what they mean by "Kowalskie Romunki", I found it in the index but not on Gilly's map, it may refer to Kowal near Wlocklawek.

a. This place it's closer to Maliniec than the other Kowalski, the bad thing is that I feel it goes a little against the migration direction of the moment in the Maliniec area, I say.
Anyways, there were some "Vistula Germans" who came to this area.

b. (Attached map 3, cut of the Breyer map).
I notice that the city of Kowal is a little isolated from the rest of the other German settlements. I do see there were evidently Protestant Germans because in 1802 they build up a church, but making conclusions only from the map I would say that it was more chosen perhaps because of its central position than for having a large population of Protestant Germans.

c. I feel like if he came from Kowal, they should have written "Kowaler" instead of "Kowalsker".

d. Assuming that "Kowalsker" refers to the region of Kowal and not precisely the city of Kowal, it would not seem like a pretty correct assumption to me since looking at the rest of the places mentioned after the husband, they tend to be very precise with the names of the towns.
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2. Other theories.

These are theories that I believe would be ruled out, especially because looking in context, that symbol is usually followed by places.

But hey, we're talking about 1792, perhaps there was not specifically a very strong standardization, so the same symbol could mean several things such as place of origin, his job, ex-wife or idk?

2.a. It's his job.
2.b. It's an ex-wife.

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2. a It's his job.

I noticed that the word "kowal" in Polish is "blacksmith".

https://www.familysearch.org/de/wiki/Polnisch_Genealogische_Wortliste#K

Kowal Schmied

I don't know if it would make much sense to put it that way.

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2.b. It's an ex-wife.

https://forum.ahnenforschung.net/forum/allgemeine-diskussionsforen/lese-und-bersetzungshilfe/2830270-hilfe-zu-kursiven-symbolen-auf-deutsch-wladyslawow-posen

I had asked a question about reading this record in the Lese- und Übersetzungshilfe section of Ahnenforschung and someone (rpeikert) answered me that (the symbol 3 in this topic) it could mean "ex". Could this mean his ex-wife's last name?

Kowalski is a common surname among Poles I think (it's like the German Schmidt or the English Smith).

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Thanks for any response. Greetings, José Marcos.

[josemarcosr]

I see that the text of the scan link was copied wrong. Here I send it again.

Wladyslawow 1776-1794
Scan 117
(Page 252)

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/1831982

[Gastonian]

Hello, José Marcos:

I agree that symbol 5 is a capital H, and symbol 2 is an "ex" ("from"). But I read symbol 3 as a "d", which is an abbreviation for "dem" ("the"). Thus, I read the entire phrase as "from the Kowalsker H."

If you look at the attached late 19th century map ( Screenshot 2024-06-15 094345.jpg ), you will see that, just below Kowalskie, there is another place called Kowalskie Hauland. "Hauland" in this phrase refers to a place settled by Germans in the late 18th/early 19th century and given certain privileges (see the third paragraph in this Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olenders). I feel pretty sure the groom Christian Hilscher was from this place.

Note: map is from https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/21015082

Regards

--Carl-Henry

[josemarcosr]

Yes, I had noticed about the "H.", I needed to clarify that I was referring specifically to "Kowalskie Hauland" and not to "Kowalskie" alone.

On the map I was looking at (Gilly's at SGGEE) it appears as "Kowalskie Hol.", so I took it as Hollendry/Holedry.

I understand that Holledry, Hauland, etc were like interchangeable terms at some point.

Thanks for responding Carl-Henry, greets.

image.png

[Dudas]

Hi,

I understand that Holledry, Hauland, etc were like interchangeable terms at some point.

Not really.
The word Holendry comes from Polish, whereas Hauland comes from German.

According to the map legend, Hol. refers to Hauländer, so it's reasonable to assume that the abbreviation originally referred to Holländer.

Kowalski is a common surname among Poles

Among penguins, particularly those from Madagascar, as well

[josemarcosr]

Not really.
The word Holendry comes from Polish, whereas Hauland comes from German.

According to the map legend, Hol. refers to Hauländer, so it's reasonable to assume that the abbreviation originally referred to Holländer.

This is because the map is in German, places like that on Polish maps appear with Holedry, Oledry, etc.

It's a translation, it's the same thing in 2 different languages.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haul%C3%A4nder

Or I don't know if I understood correctly what you wanted to tell me, I understand that what you sent me is more of a differentiation between Haulländer and Holländer, not between Höllander and Holędrzy/Olędrzy.

Among penguins, particularly those from Madagascar, as well

Great movie, haha.

A question that has nothing to do with this but a little.

Where should I ask questions about Dabie/Wladyslawow/Babiak and all that area? In this section of Mittelpolen or in the Posen one?
I always do them here because I feel that it has more to do with "Germans from Poland", sometimes I bring documents in Polish, etc.

Dabie, for example, is closer to Lodz than Posen but is currently in Wielkopolskie, it was also part of the Prussian Posen for a short period between 1793 and (1807?). I understand the Germans of the area of Dabie, despite many coming from the Posen area, have more " common history" with those from Lodz, that's why I ask them here, thanks.

[Dudas]

My point was just to clarify the abbreviation.
I cited German sources because it's about a German map, but that doesn't mean that I agree with everything the German authors claim - especially the scope of meaning, because there is a dispute in both Polish and German historiography on this issue - an eternal dispute, one might say
So, no, it's not the same in two languages - by the way, it isn't relevant in genealogy.

I don't wanna speak for the moderators, but I would like to point out that "Posen" can also refer to a Prussian province.