[gelöst] 1786 Death - Homburg

[ellend1]

Quelle bzw. Art des Textes: Family Search Catalog
Jahr, aus dem der Text stammt: 1786
Ort und Gegend der Text-Herkunft: Homburg
Namen um die es sich handeln sollte: JacobHollaender

Hello. I am seeking translation help with this death entry. My ancestor is Jacob Hollaender who married Catharina Elisabetha Mueller in 1775, Homburg. I will attach a picture and a link (page 621/1047). Thank you.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS8H-634B?i=620&cat=74904

Regards,

Ellen

[ellend1]

And this seems to be the second marriage of the widow of Jacob Hollaender on 28 SEPT 1788. Can someone please tell me the surname of the groom - Ludwig ??? Page 609/1047 in this link:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS8H-63C1?i=608&cat=74904

[Gastonian]

Hi Ellen:


As far as I can read it, the burial entry reads in translation:


"Died 25 February 1786, buried 27 February 1786, Joh. Jacob Holländer, burgher and master baker here. He was born in Berenbach [?] . . . [I cannot make out the geographical designation here]. In the year 1775 on the same date as his burial he was married here, so he remained married for 11 years. His age overall was 40 years."

As for the widow, she remarried on 28 February [not September] 1788 to Ludwig Römer, baker at the duke's court.


Regards


--Carl-Henry

[Xtine]

Hello Ellen,

here the original text:

d. 25ten Febr. 1786
d. 27ten Febr. 1786

Joh. Jacob Holländer
B.(ürger) u. Becker-
meister dahier

Er war gebürtig aus Berenbach(??Bermbach??) Ober-
amts Herrstein(??). Anno 1775 auf den
nemlichen Tag, als er ist begraben worden, ist
er dahier copuliret worden. Er hat also in der Ehe
gelebet 11 Jahr. Sein gantzes Alter war 40 Jahr.


The birth place is difficult! I can find Berenbach / Bärenbach / Bermbach with the GOV but no Herrstein / Herstein nearby which could be the upper administration level.


The marriage:

d. 28 Febr. 1788

Ludwig Römer, herzoglicher Hofbecker

wurde mit gdgster (gnädigster ?) Erlaubniß
Ihro Herzogl. Durchlaucht in der
Kirche zu Altstadt copuliret mit Catha-
rina Elisabetha, deß Jacob Holländer
weyl. Beckermeister dahier, hinterlasse-
nen Wittib. Luth. Relg.


on 28 February 1788
Ludwig Römer, ducal baker

was married with ducal permission in the church of the old city with
Catharina Elisabetha, widow of Jacob Holländer, late baker master.
Lutheran religion

[RHab]

I agree with Christine, there was no "Berenbach" in the Oberamt (district authority?) of Herrstein/shire of Sponheim. This must be a mistake in the death record. However, there was a Bärenbach in the Oberamt of Naumburg and a Bärenbach in the Oberamt of Kirchberg, both within the shire of Sponheim.

As I am sure you know, in Jakob's marriage record (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61...=677&cat=74904) his birthtown clearly reads "Bärnbach".

Best regards,
Ralph

[ellend1]

Thank you all very much for the translations and the assistance. This has been a dead end for me for a long time. I hope it is not too much bother to ask for more assistance:

1. I had not yet located the 1775 marriage of Jacob Hollaender - Ralph provided a link above. Does this state that the parents of the bride and groom are deceased? Does it state what town the bride is from? The religion?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-992X-BQ5H?cat=74904

2. As Ralph states, the groom is from Bärnbach. The geography is sometimes difficult for me. Might this be Bärnbach near Freudenstadt? Or perhaps there is another Bärnbach that I have not located on a map?

I appreciate your help in this matter.

Kind regards,

Ellen

[ellend1]

Also, I see the marriage record looks like: Bärnbach. But I came upon this record and wonder if it may be a possibility:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NPDM-TQH

I seek other opinions on this matter. Thank you.

Regards,

Ellen

[Gastonian]

Hi Ellen:


1. The marriage record states that Jacob Holländer, burgher and master baker here, son of the late Conrad Holländer of Bärnbach, marries Catharina Elisabeth, daughter of the late Daniel Müller, burgher here [i.e. in Homburg], Catholic.


2. The Bärenbach near Freudenstadt is in Baden, not Pfalz (i.e., completely different state). The Bärenbach that is meant here is probably this one, only about 6 miles from a Herrstein (https://goo.gl/maps/7M36686F177kfE186). Here it is in relationship to Homburg: https://goo.gl/maps/LbGjk66v4WUnagDJ8


3. That Johann Jacob Holländer in Becherbach is certainly the right age (he would have been 40 years old in 1786) and has the right father's name (Conrad). But that Becherbach (which, when looking at the source of the record, is the Becherbach near Meisenheim, not the Becherbach near Kirn) is quite a ways from Herrstein - so it seems peculiar that the writer of the death notice would have confused this Becherbach with the Bärenbach near Herrstein.


Note that only a small portion of all of the records in Pfalz have been indexed by familysearch.org; in particular, the church books of the Bärenbach near Herrstein (which appears to have been in the Protestant parish of Schmidthachenbach) are not available either at familysearch.org or at archion.de.



There does appear to be an Ortsfamilienbuch (local family book listing all the inhabitants of the village as far back as the church books reach) for Bärenbach, albeit not online: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/997200 and http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/B%C3%A4...berstein),_OFB. Perhaps someone here has access to a copy and can look up whether there is a Jacob Holländer, son of Conrad Holländer, born around 1746 there.


Regards



--Carl-Henry

[ellend1]

Thank you, Carl-Henry, for all your time in formulating your answer above.

I apologize for continuing to ask questions. The link I attached above (regarding a 27 APRIL 1747 birth for Johann Jacob Hollaender) - - - this is what it says on Family Search before I click on the entry:

Baptism 1 MAY 1747
Becherbach, Becherbach bei Kirn, Kusel, Palatinate, Bavaria, Germany

I do not see how to attach a picture of this here. This Becherbach bei Kirn is 6 km east of Bärenbach. I wonder if it's possible a mistake was made in writing Bärnbach onthe marriage?

I will try to locate the OFB for Bärenbach that you have indicated. That would answer the question. Again, thank you for all your time.

Kind regards,

Ellen

[ellend1]

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&q.birthLikeDate.from=1747&q.birthLikePlace=germany&q.givenName=jacob&q.residencePlace=becherbach%20&q.surname=hollander

This is the entry I am referring to above. It is the 3rd entry on the page:

Johann Jacob Hollaender

* 27 April 1747
~ 1 May 1747

Becherbach, Becherbach bei Kirn, Kusel, Palatinate, Bavaria, Germany

Thankyou,

Ellen

[RHab]

Ellen,

I think you are on the right track.

Here is his baptism record:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJB-Z9FB-X?i=234&cat=13553

He was born in Bärenbach, but the parish in which the baptism was recorded is Becherbach.

Ralph

[ellend1]

Thank you, Ralph, and many thanks to everyone. I apologize to be such a pest but I am very happy with the results. I appreciate the time everyone took to help me.

Kind regards,

Ellen