Request from Brazil

[Karl88]

Ok, i've got some documents now.

Carlos(Carl/Karl) Kalinke: passed away in 1924 at the age of 78 in Churria, Rio Grande do Sul. Married to Carolina Schultz. Both natural of Germany. His parents names were Carlos Kalinke and Emilia Kalinke. They had 6 children: Bertha, Julio, Paulina, Maria, João and Emilia.

João Kalinke, the son and my great grandfather was born in 1982 in Alfredo Chaves, now Veranópolis. He married Amalia Robert in 1912, her parents Pedro Robert and Felippina Robert were also from Germany according to the documents. She was born in São João do Monte Negro in 1894.

It seems their names were slightly adapted to portuguese at the time they arrived in here, so I fear it's going to be hard to find out what their names were in the passengers lists.

I already found through familysearch.com that there are birth registers, church registers and immigrating registers for Veranopolis during the time João was born and I'm requiring all them next week. I hope with his birth register I can find out dates and parents names of Carlos/Carl and Carolina Schultz.

[gki]

Ok, i've got some documents now.

Great!

Carlos(Carl/Karl) Kalinke: passed away in 1924 at the age of 78 in Churria, Rio Grande do Sul.

The age at death should be taken with a grain of salt.

Married to Carolina Schultz.

Unfortunately a rather common surname.

Both natural of Germany. His parents names were Carlos Kalinke and Emilia Kalinke. They had 6 children: Bertha, Julio, Paulina, Maria, João and Emilia.

Is the order of the children the order in which they were born? Who was the oldest?

João Kalinke, the son and my great grandfather was born in 1982 in Alfredo Chaves, now Veranópolis. He married Amalia Robert in 1912, her parents Pedro Robert and Felippina Robert were also from Germany according to the documents. She was born in São João do Monte Negro in 1894.

t
It seems their names were slightly adapted to portuguese at the time they arrived in here, so I fear it's going to be hard to find out what their names were in the passengers lists.

Pedro = Peter
Felippina = Philippina

I already found through familysearch.com that there are birth registers, church registers and immigrating registers for Veranopolis during the time João was born and I'm requiring all them next week. I hope with his birth register I can find out dates and parents names of Carlos/Carl and Carolina Schultz.

Good luck!

[Karl88]

guys, found lots of info now. First and most important: their surname wasn't Kalinke, it was Karlinke. They arrived in Brazil on December 22nd of 1890. I found the arrival list.
They landed in Xarqueadas, Rio Grande do Sul and the destiny was Dona Isabel, now Bento Gonçalves. I don't know the name of the ship.

Names: Carl Karlinke, husband, 33 years old. Carolina Schultz Karlinke, wife, 33 years old.

It says

Children:
Berta Karlinke, 10 years old. = Bertha
Carl Karlinke, 13 years old. = ?
Julius Karlinke, 7 years old. = Julio
Maria Karlinke, 1 years old. = Maria
Paulina Karlinke, 8 years old. = Paulina
Vilherm Karlinke, 5 years old. = Emilia?

It says all of them came from Poland, but doesn't say where. What do you guys suggest now? How could I find out where they lived before they come to Brazil?

Funny fact, João, my grandfather's father is not listed and according to my math he was supposed to have born in 1892. However, on Carl Karlinke's death certificated it says he has only six children! It could be: João was Carl Karlinke son, who came to Brazil with them or either he was born in 1892 indeed in Brazil. I ordered the microfilms of the city his death records says he was born to check if there is anything with his name.

Thanks in advance.

[gki]

guys, found lots of info now. First and most important: their surname wasn't Kalinke, it was Karlinke. They arrived in Brazil on December 22nd of 1890. I found the arrival list.

Great news indeed! Do you have a link to the list or can you attach a copy?

I'd like to check the family name, as "Karlinke" does not seem to exist as a family name. It is possibe that the guy who wrote it down made a mistake and that Kalinke is the right name after all.

They landed in Xarqueadas, Rio Grande do Sul and the destiny was Dona Isabel, now Bento Gonçalves. I don't know the name of the ship.

I think it would be fairly important to figure out the ship's name. Or does the list say anything about the harbour they started from? Are there other lists that have this information? Is the shipping company mentioned?

I can't find Xarqueadas as a a port, did it have a different name at some time?

Names: Carl Karlinke, husband, 33 years old. Carolina Schultz Karlinke, wife, 33 years old.

It says

Children:
Berta Karlinke, 10 years old. = Bertha
Carl Karlinke, 13 years old. = ?
Julius Karlinke, 7 years old. = Julio
Maria Karlinke, 1 years old. = Maria
Paulina Karlinke, 8 years old. = Paulina
Vilherm Karlinke, 5 years old. = Emilia?

Vilherm could be Wilhelm and that would be another boy.

It says all of them came from Poland, but doesn't say where. What do you guys suggest now? How could I find out where they lived before they come to Brazil?

I am not an expert when it comes to emigration, but there do exist lists of emigrants.

Funny fact, João, my grandfather's father is not listed and according to my math he was supposed to have born in 1892.

Since that is past 1890 this would explain why he wasn't on the list.

However, on Carl Karlinke's death certificated it says he has only six children! It could be: João was Carl Karlinke son, who came to Brazil with them or either he was born in 1892 indeed in Brazil. I ordered the microfilms of the city his death records says he was born to check if there is anything with his name.

Hopefully the films can solve this problem.

Also, the number of children may have been the number of children who lived at the time of their father's death.

[Karl88]

Hey, Gki. About the ship, I had some help and found it. The name of the ship is Munchen, it departed from Bremen and arrived in Brazil on november 26th 1890, in Rio de Janeiro.

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/10443840/954413664/name/Munchen_26%20nov%201890%2Epdf

Page 85, marked on the top, right side of the page. It says they are Russian, though. Kind of weird.

[arno1]

Hier eine Liste von Emigranten nach Brasilien im Zeitraum von 1850 bis 1905. Erfasst wurde der gesamte deutschsprachige Raum, auch Rußland, Polen, Schlesien, Wolhynien, Galizien usw.

http://www.arquivohistoricojoinville.com.br/ListaImigrantes/lista/tudo.htm

Gruß Ute

[gki]

Hey, Gki. About the ship, I had some help and found it. The name of the ship is Munchen, it departed from Bremen and arrived in Brazil on november 26th 1890, in Rio de Janeiro.

Great, I'll see if we can find the corresponding list from Bremen. There are lists at http://hotel432.server4you.de/passag...ex.php?lang=en but they don't cover 1890.

Another searchable database is at

http://www.ged-search.com/hmb/Deutsche%20Auswanderer-Datenbank%20online%20search.htm

but no luck there either.

An explanation at the first site makes me believe that the list of 1890 may not exist anymore. That makes things more difficult.

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/10443840/954413664/name/Munchen_26%20nov%201890%2Epdf

Page 85, marked on the top, right side of the page. It says they are Russian, though. Kind of weird.

That's not so weird. Poland didn't exist as an indepenent country at that time. It was devided between Germany (Prussia), Russia, and Austria.

So, as I read it, the family name says indeed Karlinke. This may be a misspelling, though.

There are 7 children, one died on 20th November 1890:

Bertha (female) 10
Pauline (female) 8 1/4
Wilhelm (male) 5
Julius (male) 7
Wanda (female) (died 1890-11-20)
Marie (female)
Karle (male)

I am unsure about the ages of the last three.

The religion of the people on that page is listed as catholic. This information may be inaccurate.

I will open a topic in another forum and ask for help there with how we could find the originin of this ship's passengers.

[gki]

Hier eine Liste von Emigranten nach Brasilien im Zeitraum von 1850 bis 1905. Erfasst wurde der gesamte deutschsprachige Raum, auch Rußland, Polen, Schlesien, Wolhynien, Galizien usw.

http://www.arquivohistoricojoinville.com.br/ListaImigrantes/lista/tudo.htm

Hallo Ute,

vielen Dank! Leider kann ich aber die München dort nicht finden.

(Translation: Thanks, but I can't find the ship München in that list)

[gki]

Karl, you said you have the death certificate of the older Karl, what does it say about his origins? can you upload in a scan?

(addendum: No, you said you'd obtain it. I'll wait.

[Kasstor]

Hi,

I looked for the origin of people who were aboard the München, too.

If we look at the surnames in the passenger list there is an overwhelming majority of names with Polish origin. Michalski and other -skis.
Instead, there are only a few names which tend to be of German origin.

Here is a family aboard the München coming from Obrowo. https://sites.google.com/site/michalskipinheiro/
Here another one from the Plock region: https://webcache.googleusercontent.c...&hl=de&ct=clnk

This might be a hint. Or not.

Kind regards,

Thomas

[gki]

Hi Thomas,

I am not sure if the Karlinkes on the München had the same origin as the others. But I think it might be worthwhile for Karl to contact the Michalski researcher and enquire where he got the place of birth of his ancestors from.

[Karl88]

Hier eine Liste von Emigranten nach Brasilien im Zeitraum von 1850 bis 1905. Erfasst wurde der gesamte deutschsprachige Raum, auch Rußland, Polen, Schlesien, Wolhynien, Galizien usw.

http://www.arquivohistoricojoinville.com.br/ListaImigrantes/lista/tudo.htm

Gruß Ute

Hello Ute, thanks for the link but I have checked all those lists before and those immigrants went to a different region of Brazil, so the ones I'm looking for aren't among those listed in that website. But anyway, thanks for taking our time and for trying to help. It means a lot.

If we look at the surnames in the passenger list there is an overwhelming majority of names with Polish origin. Michalski and other -skis.
Instead, there are only a few names which tend to be of German origin.

Yeah, There are many polish names there. I think it was written they were Prussian in the original list and when they landed in here, whoever wrote the arrival list might have thought Prussian stands for Russian. Thanks for the help, Thomas! It means a lot.

Hi Thomas,

I am not sure if the Karlinkes on the München had the same origin as the others. But I think it might be worthwhile for Karl to contact the Michalski researcher and enquire where he got the place of birth of his ancestors from.

I already contacted a group of Poland-Brazil immigration researchers and they are helping me already. They sent me the name of the link, the dates and the ship's name. I will try to contact this Michalski researcher and enquire the others in the group if they can help me with that too.

The religion of the people on that page is listed as catholic. This information may be inaccurate.

Yeah, my whole family is lutheran and my great grandfather and grandfather's first language was German. I'm pretty sure that information is inaccurate and they were protestants.

There are two passengers list. From the München that took them from Bremen to Rio de Janeiro, and another ship that took them from Rio de Janeiro to Xarqueadas(now Charqueadas) and in that passengers list it says they were Polish.

Karl, you said you have the death certificate of the older Karl, what does it say about his origins? can you upload in a scan?

(addendum: No, you said you'd obtain it. I'll wait.

I have that already, and I definitely can send you via private message. Or can I upload it and post the link in here and made it not public? How can I do that?

In his death certificate it says he's from Germany. And on João weeding and death certificate it says his parents Karl and Karoline Schultz were German too, but no cities.

[gki]

In his death certificate it says he's from Germany. And on João weeding and death certificate it says his parents Karl and Karoline Schultz were German too, but no cities.

Thanks for the document! (for others: it's a modern printout, I advised to get a copy of the original)

Regarding German vs. Polish vs. Russian: It is entirely possible that they were ethnic Germans who were living in a Polish region that was at that time administered by Russia.

I am not entirely sure how to continue. It is possible that the death of Wanda was recorded elsewhere (in Germany maybe as it was a German ship) and that it has information on where she was born.

Some of the other children also seem to have died in Brazil (Wilhelm for example) and may have this information recorded.

[gki]

According to German laws of the time, the death of a passenger would be recorded by the captain in is logbook and then later a copy of this would be sent to the registrar at the place where the passenger used to live.

However, there also should be a copy of this act at the port, that is Bremen.

Until 1875 you can actually browse these records at ancestry.com, but for 1890 you will need to contact the Staatsarchiv Bremen.

http://www.staatsarchiv.bremen.de

I suggest you mail them in English at office@staatsarchiv.bremen.de and ask if there is an entry in the "Sterberegister" of the "Seemannsamt Bremen" for Wanda Kalinke. Give them the date, (1890-11-20?) and the ship. There will be a fee that you'll need to pay, I think. This should have some sort of address as they'd need to send a copy to the local registrar.

Here's a German wikipedia entry on the ship they travelled on:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/München_(Schiff,_1889)

A small picture:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~banatdata/DDB/Photos/ShipPages/S0102.htm

[Karl88]

The email is sent, gki. Now lets wait for their answer. Do they have a usual "deadline" for a reply?

Thanks a lot!