Can someone pls help me find info about my German ancestor Casper Huhn/Hundt born ca. 1735

[ErikGustavsen]

Hi, I am from Norway and have found out that I have an ancestor from Dingeda(?) in Saxsen Gotha in Germany, but I have zero experience with German archives so I hope that someone here can help me.
My ancestor Casper/Caspar Huhn/Hundt born in ca. 1735 married in ca. 1760 (probably in Saxsen Gotha) a woman called Julianna Maria Georgsdaughter or Fredrichsdaughter (Maybe with the surname Rohrbach) born in ca. 1740. They probably got a child named Frants Christopher here in ca. 1763. Then they must have moved to Trondheim in Norway in ca. 1765. Because in 1769 they get a child named Maria Elisabeth in Trondheim in Norway. At this time Casper is referred to as a Musketeer at Major Cranes Company. Casper and Julianna gets more children in Norway: twins Georg Jörgen Fredrich and Johan Fredrick in 1771, Gotfried Richard in 1773, twins Johan Casper and Hans Samuel in 1777, and Karen Maria in 1779. In 1774 Casper got his citizenship as a slaughter: “Likewise, Casper Huhn appeared, who was born in Dingeda in Saxony Gotha, and requested to be granted citizenship as a Master Butcher, which the Magistrate granted, and thereafter he took the Oath of Civil Allegiance.” I am not share if it says Dingeda or Durgeda or something else. So I linked a screenshot of the untranslated citizenship certificate. Anyways, it says that it is in Saxsen Gotha so I guess this is the right forum to ask this genealogy question. So can anyone pls help me and find more general info about this family? Who for example Casper Huhn and Julianna Maria’s parents. I would love every bit of info you can find

Sincerly Erik Gustavsen

[Gastonian]

Hi Erik:

"Dingeda" is Tüngeda, then in Sachsen-Gotha-Altenburg, now in Thuringia (see, unfortunately only in German, https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%BCngeda).

The Protestant churchbooks for Tüngeda are available at archion.de, which is a paysite of the Protestant Church of Germany (access costs just about 20 Euros for a month).

I have so far located there the death on 29 August 1762 of Martha Maria, only daughter of butcher Johann Caspar Huhn, age 3 years (see attachment) - so there indeed was a butcher named Johann Caspar Huhn having children in Tüngeda in the late 1750s/early 1760s, who almost certainly was your ancestor. I will need to search for more information on him in the Tüngeda churchbook.

MvH

--Carl-Henry

[ErikGustavsen]

Thank you so much for helping. In the Norweagian archives he only uses Casper, not Johann Casper. But that could simply mean he didn’t want to use his first name I guess. Or maybe this could be a brother. It was difficult reading the church book, so it would take me ages, so thank you so much for helping again.

[nav]

Thank you so much for helping. In the Norweagian archives he only uses Casper, not Johann Casper. But that could simply mean he didn’t want to use his first name I guess. Or maybe this could be a brother. It was difficult reading the church book, so it would take me ages, so thank you so much for helping again.

Caspar was his first name. Just not his first first name. To avoid confusion, it would probably be better to use a term like given name and avoid "first name" and "middle name". If you do genealogy in Germany, you have to get rid of the ridiculous assumption, that the first given name of a person has any kind of priority just because it comes first.

People had a number of given names (most commonly one, two or three, but sometimes more, depending on the region and the social status of the family), and usually any one of those could be the one they were known by in everyday life.

In German, I'd call this "Rufname", which would be "call name" when translated literally, but I couldn't find an equivalent English word so far. Some sources seem to translate it as "nickname" ("Spitzname" in German), but I'd argue that is usually a somewhat playful or non-serious name that isn't the actual name of a person, although it can be derived from it.

[Gastonian]

Hi Erik:

To echo what nav has just written - especially in Protestant Germany at that time, boys were VERY often baptised as Johann something-or-the-other - Johann Adam, Johann Georg, Johann Friedrich, Johann Christian, Johann Caspar, etc. - so in daily use the Johann was frequently dropped.

As to his wife - you probably have Norwegian sources calling her Julianna Maria Georgsdotter or Fredriksdotter. However, in Germany by this time patronymics (-son) and matronymics (-dotter) were not used, and family names (like those adopted in rural Norway in the early 20th century) were used instead. Can you provide a link or screenshot of the source in which she is called Rohrbach?

--Carl-Henry

[ErikGustavsen]

That’s good to know.

About Julianna… I have myself not seen Juliana named Rohrbach in the Norweagian archives. However I wrote that she may be named Rohrbach because a few MyHeritage users said it. I went through all the baptisms of Casper and Julianna’s children in Norway, and I didn’t see her being named Rohrbach once, nor in Casper’s probate. I only saw that one of her children’s godmothers was named Rohrbach, maybe they got confused and mixed them. So now I actually think that it is unlikely that she is named that.

I saw in one baptism on the other hand, that she was called Julianna Dorothea (but only once. She is mostly called Julianna Maria). About if she is the daughter of a Georg or Fredrich, and therefore the named Fredrichsdatter and George: In the 1801 census she is named Julianna Maria Friederichsdatter. In the probate of her husband Casper, she is however named Juliana Maria Georgsdatter a few times. So she is mostly named Julianna Maria Georgsdatter. But she could theoretically be a Dorothea and/or Friederichsdatter.

Sincerly Erik

[Gastonian]

Hi Erik:

I have looked through the baptisms in Tüngeda from 1758 to 1767, looking at both parents and godparents (fadder in Norwegian). I did not find a baptism of either the girl Martha Maria who died, or of the Franz Christoph who is supposed to have been born around 1763.

What I did find is a baptismal entry from 10 August 1761 in which the godparent was a Susanna Elisabeth, wife of master butcher here Caspar Huhn (in German: "Sus. Elis. Huhnin Mstr. Casp. Huhnens Metzger alhier Eheweib"). Also, on 21 January 1765 Johann Caspar Huhn, butcher here, was a godparent.

I also looked through the marriages from 1756 to 1765, but did not find one for Caspar Huhn (or similar)

Thus, there indeed was a butcher Caspar Huhn in Tüngeda in the early 1760s, but his origin and family are still unclear and apparently do not match up with what you have from Norwegian sources.

Regards

--Carl-Henry

[eifeler]

Guten Abend,

RUFNAME in English > forename or "name normally used"/"by which a person is generally called".

Gruß
Der Eifeler

[ErikGustavsen]

So is it now unclear if this Johan Casper is my ancestor, or is it still likely? Casper could have been married to someone else before he married Julianna Maria. And his first child Frants Casper could be born for example in 1766 somewhere else. The first source of him in Norway is 1769 as far as I know (when he is the father of Maria Elisabeth). So the sources in Germany doesn’t really contradict anything it seems like. As said, I don’t know where or when he married Julianna, so it could be outside of Tüngeda. So since you didn’t find her in Tüngeda, I would guess they married somewhere else. The citizenship of Casper only says that he is from here as discussed. I would think his wife and first child also came from there, but now it seems like they met somewhere else. Since his name, period of birth, birthplace and profession matches I think it still seems likely that it’s the same Casper. But strange that you cannot find anything about Casper’s origin, since he is the only one we know for certain came from Tüngeda. Hmmm

[Gastonian]

Hi Erik:

Yes, I agree it has to be the right Caspar Huhn - he is in the right trade and the right age, and this is also the only town not only in Sachsen-Gotha, but also in all of Germany that sounds like "Dingeda". We just need more details to flesh out his story and figure out what happened between 1765 (in Tüngeda) and 1769 (in Norway).

In any case, I did find his marriage record in the neighboring village of Wangenheim, which was owned by the same local lord as Tüngeda. The record (attached) reads in German: "den 26. Juny [1759] ist Johann Kaspar Huhn Juv. Metzger, Weyl. Christoph Huhns Metzgers allhier hinterlaßener Sohn, und Jungfer Anna Elisabetha Heynin, Weyl. Esaias Heyn Innwohner allhier hinterl. elteste Tochter öffentl. Copuliret worden." In English: 26 Jun 1759 Johann Kaspar Huhn, bachelor and butcher, son of the late butcher here Christoph Huhn, and maiden Anna Elisabetha Heyn, eldest daughter of the late resident Esaias Heyn here, were publicly married.

And also in Wangenheim we have the following baptismal entry: 5 Feb 1760 Johann Kaspar Huhn, butcher here, had a daughter Martha Maria baptised. This is the same Martha Maria who then died age 3 (or rather 2 1/2) in late 1762 in Tüngeda; thus confirming that this is the same Johann Caspar Huhn. So we now know that until at least February 1760 he was a butcher in Wangenheim, and then from at least August 1761 to January 1765 a butcher in Tüngeda (where his wife is called Susanna Elisabeth rather than Anna Elisabeth - Anna could have been just short for Susanna).

Unfortunately, the church book for Wangenheim for the years 1682 to 1749, which would contain Caspar's baptism, is missing ("verschollen", according to the archive of the Protestant church of Thüringen).

The items still missing between 1765 and 1769: death of first wife, marriage to second wife Julianna, birth of son Franz Christoph (if German) or Frants Christopher (if Norwegian)

Regards

--Carl-Henry

[ErikGustavsen]

You’re awesome. Now I know more about that side of my family😊🎉

Best regards,
Erik

[Gastonian]

Hi Erik:

You say that in 1769 Caspar was a musketeer in Major Crane's company. Can you identify this company on this organization chart of the Norwegian army 1769-1775: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/32845/79? I don't see a Major (Oberst) Crane in the hired troops (N. fjeldske gevorbne inf. regt.). There does appear to be a Kptlnt (captain lieutenant) Joh. Chr. Krone who heads the Ørkedal company of the 3. Trondhjemske nasj. inf. regt. - could that be Caspar's company? In any case, if the company can be identified, perhaps Caspar can be found (with date of entry into military service in Norway) in the Militære ruller (for example here: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/source/51373).

MvH

--Carl-Henry

[ErikGustavsen]

I am not that experienced with checking out military records, so I asked the question in a Norweagian forum also trying to find out where Casper Huhn came from (without success). They also thought that Casper could be found in the link you send, they didn’t find him there. There are multiple military sources which is not digital or which is lost. So it could simply mean Casper’s regiment is not to found on the internet. On the other hand someone else found that Major Crane most likely is Major Andres (von) Crane. Andreas Crane was attached to the "Delmenhorstiske Regiment" of which 2 battalions was stationed in Trondheim - the others in Bergen. The professional soldiers in this regiment arrived with wives/children in Norway in the middle of 1767.

About Casper’s age… I said that he may be born ca. 1735. That was because it was written on some MyHeritage users (who had correct dates of births for their children). However I haven’t really found any sources regarding his age. The 1801 census show that Julianna is born in ca. 1742, but Casper dies in ca. 1782, so unfortunately we don’t know his date of birth. This info does imply that Casper also would be born in ca. 1742 (or 1740, because in general men often was the same age or older than their wife), all though that is very uncertain. Considering that Casper at least was a musketeer in between 1769 (probably from 1766) and 1774, he would more likely be born a little bit later than 1735, maybe 1740, since most people in the military were in their early 20s. So if he was born in 1735, he would be ca. 39 years when he quit and became a full time butcher in 1774. This could be correct, but it could be more likely if he was born in ca. 1745. In theory however, the Norweagian sources does (as far as I know) show that he would be born between 1730 and 1750. If he theoretically was born after 1745 he would probably not be the Casper you have pointed out, because we know that “your” Johan Casper was a butcher in 1760. On the other hand if he was born in between 1730 and 1745, he fits “perfectly” with your Johan Casper. So I just want to rule out the less possible alternative. So to double check and strengthen our theory, do you know of any other Casper’s in Tüngeda who could be born inbetween 1745 (or let’s say from 1740) and 1750? (In general now, would you say that the (somewhat) uncertain date of birth makes it less likely for your candidate to be the right one)?

And with the other info about the Regiment he was in, does this help in finding more info about Casper?

Sincerly Erik

[Gastonian]

Hi Erik:

Huhn (or similar) is not a frequent family name in Tüngeda - in fact, the Caspar Huhn who was a butcher there from 1761 to 1765 is the only male Huhn in the mid-18th century there. No other male Huhn was born there in the period 1720-1750. So if the "Dingeda" in the Trondhjem borgerbok is correct, it has to be him. It does raise the question why he would hire himself out as a professional soldier, only then to return to being a butcher (although, given that the Delmenhorstiske Regiment left Norway in 1774, it would make sense that he would have stayed behind in 1774 and in that year returned to being a butcher, for which he needed the borgerskap).

Given that the regiment came from Denmark to Norway, it is also possible that there may be records pertaining to it in the Danish Rigsarkivet. However, it has been years since I looked for records there. Perhaps somebody in the Norwegian forum has recent experience there?

Regards

--Carl-Henry

[ErikGustavsen]

👍 Thank you again so much.