Martin Rosin and Anna Justine Job marriage record

[josemarcosr]

Hello everyone, first of all, can I write in English? I am Argentinian, so I am naturally a native Spanish speaker and I don't know German, I know the basics but I feel that it is better to write in English because I know the language much better and I can correct what Google translator mistranslates for me, in German I go like blind.

I just discovered this forum, I have many questions about my ancestors in the Dabie region, many, but I understand that I can ask one question per topic, so I'm going to start with just one.

Something I never saw, I would like to find the marriage record of Martin Rosin with Anna Justine Job.
Information about the date, place, parents, occupation, etc.

Martin Rosin
1763 - Laskon, Schokken?
21 Aug 1811 - Sobotka, Dabie
Father: Johann Rosin

Anna Justine Job
1768 - Gosciejewo (Gorzewo), Rogasen
2 Sep 1843 - Sobtoka, Dabie
Father: Johann Job & Anna Marie Lange

*The surname Job in its Polish form: Kabat.

The first child of the couple that I know is Andreas Rosin born in 1793 in Sobotka, Dabie?
So the marriage had to take place between 1785-1793 I believe.
From the dates of the creation of parishes I understand that it is probably in the records of Wladyslawow or Babiak, or did they get married there near Oborniki / Rogasen / Schokken / Wagrowiec?

A great friend of my searches is Poznan Project, unfortunately it stays at 1800 and doesn't go further back. Another one is Geneteka but I understand that it doesn't have the records of the parish of Wladyslawow indexed, and in BaSIA I understand the records of that parish are indexed but I cannot find them, perhaps I wasn't good enough searching.

Thanks in advance.

[Wolfrum]

Hello Jose Marco SR

to Martin Rosin:
He died on 21 Aug. 1808 in Sobotka, Dabie.

http://www.basia.famula.pl/record/NTRfNzM2XzYuMV8xXzUzXzFfX18xODA4X2U1NTQwY2Y3ZDcxYW FjNjRhMzFhNGExYzI5OWFiZTUwX2thdF9j

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/skan/-/skan/c26cdd25a5e6b66b5be53edbf1672e8e647deb65909ba5b684d1959a059f3be3

Marriage in the period in question:
From 1793, Laskon and Gorzewo both belonged to the district of Obornik in South Prussia, the Kingdom of Prussia.
Before that, these areas belonged to the Kingdom of Poland-Lithuania.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rep%C3%BAblica_de_las_Dos_Naciones

If you search for the FN Kabat on basia.famula, you will find the largest number of entries on the churches:
Szamotuły, Obrzycko, Głuchowo, Wiry and Poznan

So I would want to look in that area. I can't say where exactly.
I also don't know much about the indexed church records from the area.

Best regards Christian

[josemarcosr]

Hi Christian, thank you, yes I knew the record of his death in Sobotka, I also know the record of Anna Justine Job's death in 1843.

The truth is that I can't find the marriage record in the BaSIA registry.

I understand that in the Rosentreter Foundation there are records for Schokken (Skoki) and Murowana Goslina, Oborniki in the period I am looking for, there are also records for Wagrowiec and other nearby cities but not for the period I'm looking for.

Where can I look for more records from those places? Because that was on the "German" side so I feel like I should look at German genealogy sites, is there a place where they are indexed? In FamilySearch they are indexed, for example I found the death of Martin's father, Johann Rosin in Laskon, Schokken in 1795 but in FS it was indexed as "Johann Kossin", so it was very difficult to find it (plus you can't see them in FS, I see the record in Rosentreter Foundation), is there any other place where they are indexed or places to search for records from those times of the searched period 1785-1793?

The same applies to Wladyslawow, which is not in Geneteka, it is in the Rosentreter Foundation but you have to watch each image one by one and it has a not so friendly interface where if you want to zoom in you have to directly download the image.

Thanks again.

[Wolfrum]

Hello Jose Marco SR

I only know an indexed search from familysearch.com, geneteka.genealodzy.pl, basia.famula.pl and poznan-project.psnc.pl.
You have to reckon with errors on all pages, so you have to adapt your own search accordingly.

I also sometimes work in this area with the lists from https://www.mittelpolen.de/webtrees
There you can search for all or individual family trees.

to the parish register Dabie would still be to say that he is visible here.
evangelic:

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/de/zespol/-/zespol/22066

https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/73151?availability=Family%20History%20Library

catholic:

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/de/zespol/-/zespol/22100

https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/73094?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Sometimes you have to look through the church records by hand because not all years are indexed and because you should always check the contents yourself.

Greetings, Christian

[Wolfrum]

Something else that might be very interesting.
Murowana Goślina lies somewhat in the centre between Obornik and Schokken (Skoki)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murowana_Go%C5%9Blina

The coat of arms consists of 3 roses. Roses (german Rosen) = Rozyn

On basia.famula.pl you can find many entries under the search Rossin (Kossin = Rossin).
I would equate Rosin, Rosien, Rozyn, Rossin with the name. These are variations depending on the language and time.

Possibly the marriage Rozyn/Job (Kabat) can be found there.
The priest from Schokken was in Murowana Goślina in the early days.

https://agoff.de/?p=86896

Here is the existing church register, evangelic:

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/de/zespol/-/zespol/19348

Greetings, Christian

[josemarcosr]

Thank you very much Cristian for your help Cristian.

The truth is that it's seems difficult to find it until now, I found many Rosin in the records of Murowana Goslina, I looked mostly at the marriages and deaths, later I will look more at the births, no Martin.
There are some Rosin in Murowana Goslina that even are related to the Rosin from the Schokken records, that's interesting (the problem is that I can't connect my Rosin to the Schokken ones).

My intention is to demonstrate the relationship that exists between my Rosin and these Schokken and Murowana Goslina.

Evidently Martin Rosin had a brother named Michael, their father was Johann Rosin with an unknown mother (she is not Caroline Buss as some genealogy pages say, that woman is totally incorrect).

There's Michael Rosin children who are in the records of Schokken, so must be a connection.

But I cannot prove the relationship between Michael, Martin and Johann with records for now, but obviously there is somewhere where it's demonstrated this because the relationship appears in that way everywhere.

Johann Rosin (father)
1715 - Oct 14, 1795 Laskon

Schokken (ew)

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6FZM-3JY2

(available at Rosentreter Foundation)

Michael Rosin
Birth: 1745?
Married Anna Marie Grünning (Zielinski)
Death: 22 Feb 1811 Sobotka, Dabie

Chelmno (kath)

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/1825122

Scan 10/44
Reg 37

Martin Rosin
Birth: 1763? 1768
Married Anna Justine Job (Kabat)
Death: 21 Aug 1808 Sobotka, Dabie

Chelmno(kath.)

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/1825442

Scan 53/64
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That is to say, there are 2 brothers who are almost 20 years apart, these are the only children I know from Johann, it seems to me that clearly there must be brothers and sisters who I don't found between them, there's, for example a Jakub Rosin (1756-, married to Brodehl) who also goes from the Schokken area to Dabie, he may also be a relative of my Rosin's brothers.

I feel that the solution to all my problems will be solved with the digitization of the Schokken (ew) archives.

Specifically the one of the deaths of 1681-1778, there may be lost dead children of Michael and children of Johann, and more, living in Laskon.

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/...ortlet.action= zmienWidok&_Zespol_nameofjsp=pradziad&_Zespol_id_z espolu=90002834&_Zespol_rowId=9000011644&_Zespol_c ur=1

(I wish I could see this, I don't know if it's online somewhere else or how can I see this)

Although it seems that I'm deviating from the initial topic, my goal is also to provide a little more of context.

I understand that the great migration from the Oborniki area to the Dabie area happened around 1790, so it could be that the marriage happened in Wladyslawow (ew) or it could be in a Catholic church in the area, but the Kath Records of Dabie just begins in 1806 and Chelmno begins in 1808.

I'll keep looking.

Thank you again.

PS: I'm going to investigate more on the Agoff page, I see that there's very interesting information but for now I can't affiliate.

[Wolfrum]

Hello.

I have a few questions about your statements:

How do you know that Andreas Rosin was born in Schokken?
I have found no reference to Schokken either in the marriage or in the death certificate of Andreas Rosin born 1793.

How do you know that the information about Martin Rosin's mother is wrong?
Do you have any evidence of another name?

To the marriage from Andreas Rosin and Anna Rosina Wegner.
There are the marriage additional files (Allegata) from 1814 in Chelmno.
However, they are not available online.
These would have to be requested from the archive.
They will most likely contain Andreas' date and place of birth.
You would then have to search further, e.g. for other births to narrow down the marriage date of the parents.


Everything else is just speculation. It's best to start with the children, search for and translate their documents (deaths, marriages, baptisms).

Your Schokken theory doesn't convince me so far.

Greetings, Christian

[josemarcosr]

I mentioned Andreas only once and the only thing I said about him was that I think he was born in Sobotka, so exactly the opposite.

I know the records of Andreas Rosin, in fact the marriage on 13 Apr 1814 in Chelmno (kath) is available online:

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/1825473

Scan 21/58
Reg 122


>Reinhold Jerke comment about the marriage in Poznan Project:

• Reinhold Jerke (e-mail: censored):
  Die Trauung erfolgte am 13.04.1814. Andreas Rosin ist der Sohn von Martin R. und Anna Justine geb. Job und mütterlicherseits Enkelsohn von Johann Martin Job und Anna Maria geb. Lange aus Sobotka, Kr. Kolo. Die Braut Anna Rosina Wegner ist die Tochter von Lorenz Wegner und Anna Susanna geb. Schröder aus Sobotka. Andreas und Anna Rosina leben ebenfalls in Sobotka und zuletzt in Piaski, Kr. Turek, wo er am 15.10.1859 und sie am 04.01.1862 stirbt.
  (03-07-2014)

The only thing it says is the ages of each person: Andreas 20, Rosine Wegner 18, in fact from there we deduce the possible date of birth of Andreas Rosin 1793 or 1794, in any case those ages in the records aren't always 100% reliable, but surely it should not be so wrong.
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I'm looking through Wladyslawow's archives and I can't find his birth record or marriage between 1793 and 1794, but I'm pretty sure that Andreas was already born in the Dabie area, I don't know if Andreas is the first child of the Rosin-Job marriage, if so, thus it's likely that the marriage and birth record was registered in Wladyslawow, if the couple already had several children it could be there in Schokken / Rogozno / Oborniki / Murowana Goslina.

That's my theory about the marriage hanging around the age of Andreas, the couple's first known child.
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I would believe Martin Rosin left for Sobotka around 1790.


Martin's brother: Michael had children with Grünning in Laskon, Schokken until 1780. (Anna Rosine 1777- and Martin 1780-)
In 1783 he already had a son in Sobotka (Johann 1783-,...), so Michael moved between 1780 and 1783 (!), is it possible that Martin went with him?

Evidently Michael was already married and had children when he moves, Martin was between 15 and 20 years old in 1783, he could have join the migration with his older brother from the beginning or moved alone closer to 1790. His father stayed and died in Laskon.
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This next part may confuse to someone reading this and is losing it with so many names and relationships, I hope it doesn't:

The eldest daughter of Michael Rosin (Anna Rosine Rosin 1777-) marries a brother of Anna Justine Job (Johann Job 1760-) in 1793 in Sobotka (it's a marriage that I knew about, but today I saw it for first time in the records of Wladyslawow)

Johann Job & Anna Rosin
(Joh. Jopp & Anna Rosinin)
May 20, 1793

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/1831982

Scan 132/145 Wladyslawow 1776-1794


*Johann Job and Anna Justine Job's parents, Johann Job & Anna Marie Lange die in Sobotka.

So evidently the entire Job family moved to Sobotka, they are the only children I know of the couple, so I can only assume that they moved to Sobotka around 1790 causing their children to marry around 1793, Perhaps they moved in 1793 when Dabie found itself out of Poland and on the Prussian side post-partition 1793*, perhaps also at that exact moment Martin Rosin moved, I think I read in Kneifel book that year was a big migration wave, anyway if Andreas Rosin was born in 1793/1794 for reasons of pregnancy Martin and Justine Job should have been known each other at the beginning of 1793.

*The Dabie area was within Poland but with the partition in 1793 it became within Prussia, then returned to Polish hands post-Napoleon.

Sorry for writing so much, but while I'm writing I also realize things and I think it's good that they are reflected written here.

I'll keep looking, it may simply have been lost or it may be written in those final parts of the page that look all black in the scans haha.

Thanks again Christian.

PS: My name is Jose Marcos, my surname is Rosin, so it's more like JoseMarcosR, haha, greets.

[josemarcosr]

How do you know that the information about Martin Rosin's mother is wrong?
Do you have any evidence of another name?

I missed answering this.

No, I don't have another name, but the couple Johann Rosin - Caroline Buss was a Dabie couple but exactly 100 years later.

In MyHeritage or places like that you can find the erroneous information that Michael and Martin Rosin are the children of Johann Rosin with Caroline Buss, this is incorrect.

You can find the tree like:

Georg Rosin 1687-
Susanne Schindel 1693-
-------Johann Rosin 1715-1795
-------Karolina Buss 1731-
--------------------Michael Rosin 1745-
--------------------Martin Rosin 1763-

In bold the only ones that are correct, in red the incorrect.

I believe someone did this with only the intention of simply lengthening its family tree, not in search of the truth.
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Why are those incorrect?

Indeed there was a Johann Rosin who was the son of George Rosin and Susanne Schindel and married a Karolina Buss but... exactly 100 years later!!


Marriage record in Poznan Project:
Protestant community Dąbie
entry 15 / 1849
Jan Rosin (20 years old)
father: Jerzy Rozyn, mother: Zuzanna Szendel
Karolina Buss (18 years old)
father: Andrzej Buss, mother: Anna Luiza Hoffmann

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/1835338

Scan 66/132
Reg 15


That is, to increase the family tree by 2 generations, they invented that all these people from Dabie lived 100 years but in Oborniki.

Corrected version:
Georg Rosin (1787-1840)
Susanna Schendel (1793-1864)
----------Johann Rosin (1828- )
----------Karolina Buss (1730- )

These are the correct (or closer to reality) values for these individuals, what a coincidence that they are all exactly 100 years later.

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In fact, this George Rosin 1787- could easily be a descendant of the Johann from 1715, haha.

It must be said that in most places (as another trees from MyHeritage, etc)luckily this mistake isn't repeated and Caroline Buss isn't put as the wife of Johann Rosin of Schokken.

I think that people fall easily into this trap because they don't know about the other couple Johann Rosin and Carolina Buss from 100 years later.
I also fell into this trap at first, but as I became more familiar with the individuals from the parish of Dabie, I noticed this error that I don't know who made it.
The person who started it, perhaps did it without bad intentions just because it got confused, but it's an error that I see many repeat and propagate.
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[josemarcosr]

Well, a little update on this, I must specifically thank Reinhold Jerke for his collaboration.

He's a distant relative of mine through the Job family and knows a lot about Grabina Wielka where his Job's went to.
Grabina Wielka is a village next to Sobotka, there was a lot of connection and marriages between Grabina Wielka and Sobotka families.

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Andreas Rosin birth

Martin Rosin and Anna Justine Job had children before my ancestor Andreas, although he may be the only one who passed through adolescence and married among those 3.

-Johann Gottfried Rosin.
Baptism: December 20, 1790, Sobotka.
Parents: Martin Rosin & Justine.
Scan 105, Page 228, Wladyslawow ew. (1776-1794)

-Martin Rosin
Baptism: March 27, 1792, Sobotka.
Parents: Martin Rosine & Justine.
Scan 118, Page 255. Wladyslawow ew (1776-1794)

Wladyslawow (1776-1794)

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/1831982

So:
Martin Rosin & Justine Job children:
1- Johann Gottfried 1790-
2- Martin Rosin 1792-
3?- Andreas Rosin 1793/4-?
...

So Andreas would be the 3rd child, when he got married in 1814 he presented a birth certificate (probably from Chelmno kath. 1793/4, the records of Chelmno from that time I think are lost, or from Wladyslawow ew. 1793/4 but I can't find it to that birth).
There he says he was 20 years old, so he could have been born in 1794 or 1793, when he died in 1859 he said he was 68 years old. (1859-68 = 1791). (I know that the death certificates were inaccurate with the ages).

Martin Rosin 1792- = Andreas Rosin?
For this reason, another theory that occurs to me is this Martin Rosin from 1792 could be my Andreas Rosin, and that they called him Andreas to differentiate him from his father. (Weak theory since Martin Rosin Sr. died in 1808).
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Rosin / Job marriage
So, regarding the Rosin/Job marriage I see this:

Wladyslawow 1776-1794
Scan 93, Page 205.
Anna Justine Krüger, Sobotka.
Baptism: 15.8.1789

There Justine appears as a witness/godmother: Justine Jobbin, so her single surname.

Then they have the aforementioned son Johann Gottfried baptized in December 1790.

Also I could mention:
Scan 110, Page 238.
Johann Gramms?, Sobotka
Baptism: 12.4.1791
Witness/godmother: Justine Rosinin.
So, she already appears with a married name in 1791.

So Martin Rosin and Justine Job married between August 1789 and April 1790. (taking into account a normal 9-month pregnancy for Johann Gottfried)

And something particular happens with the record, the marriage pages of the Wladyslawow record 1776-1794 for that exact period, later 1789 and early 1790, are apparently lost.

As I said, his brother Michael was in Sobotka in 1783, so Martin (presumably born in 1763) may have come with him, now I believe more strongly that the marriage took place in the parish of Wladyslawow and not in Schokken or Rogasen.

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About the family of Martin Rosin.

With Reinhold Jerke we have also investigated a couple more things and discovered:

Martin Rosin's parents:
-Jacob Rosin, unknown mother.

Children:
1. Michael Rosin 1745-1811 / married Grünning / Schokken to Sobotka
2. Johann Rosin 1756- / married to Deufel / stayed in Schokken?
-His son George (the one I mentioned in the last post) (1787 Nawisk?, Kr. Oborniki-1840 Kobyle) marries in 1810 in Labendz (next to Grabina Wielka), where his cousin appears as a witness: Daniel Rosin from Sobotka who is Michael's son, then George moves to Kobyle* (where there were several other Rosin).
Chelmno 1810. Scan 82 & 83, Labendz (check last post). There also it says his birth record was from Rogasen / Rogozno.
3. Elisabeth Rosin 1760?-1813 Kobyle / married Zielke / from ? to Kobyle.
4. Paul Rosin 1760?-1836 Kobyle / married Thiele / from ? to Kobyle.
5. Martin Rosin 1763?-1808 Sobotka / married to Job / from ? to Sobotka?

There is also a Mathias Rosin who married on February 3, 1780 in Schokken, son of a Jacob, he could be another brother.

In Grabina Wielka, there was also a Jacob Rosin (1756?-) married to Elisabeth Prudehl / Brodehl, he may also be related.

Perhaps some of those mentioned were not brothers but cousins to each other, but there was evidently a relationship.

*Kobyle/Kobyla, Grabow. Kobyle was also part of the Wladyslawow and then the Dabie / Dombie parrish.

So when looking for the Rosin/Job marriage it would be better to look for a Martin Rosin with a father named Jacob and not Johann as I thought before.
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I think I have anything more to add, thanks to anyone wanting to contribute on this or just reading it.