How to find a birth certificate? (Keller Family)

[gkeller]

Hello,

I have found the birth certificate from the mother of my great-grandfather using the familysearch.org here you can see her record:

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/search/IGI/individual_record.asp?recid=100076413370&lds=1&region=8&regionfriendly=Germany

Now I am looking for the birth-certificate of my great-grandfather I used this form:

http://www.wuppertal.de/urkundenbestellung

And this data:

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/IGI/individual_record.asp?recid=500250937889&lds=1&region=8&regionfriendly=Germany

But the data is incorrect they did not find him birth-certificate in Wuppertal.

I have the following certificates here in Brazil:
Marriage: 28 de Setembro de 1912 - Pedras Grandes , Santa Catarina , Brazil [24 years old]
Death: 08 April 1938 - Lauro Müller, Santa Catarina, Brazil [49 years old]
So he probably born between April and September, but I do not know where I could search/ask for him birth certificate. Any advice?

In the certificates they just write, "Birth place: Germany" [Nascimento: Alemanha] do not have the city or state specified in the certificates.

Thank you indeed.

Sincerely,
Guilherme Inocêncio Keller

[heike_b]

Hallo Guilherme,

I think it's best that you order the film from the family history center, and look up the name and address of the person who submitted it. Maybe there was also a mistake when the data were transferred into the database? In any case, contacting that person might be interesting, because he might have information about many more ancestors.

In case you cannot find the person who submitted the record, maybe Standesamt Wuppertal can look for the entry not just on the particular date mentioned, but from April to September (or they have a name list for the entire year, than it should be easy). Maybe the date from familyhistory is just one day off, as it seems to be with the death. Sometimes people working at Standesamt also oversee an entry, even though it exists; this happened to me once, the Standeamt employee asked me to check the data again as she couldn't find the entry, but when I checked them and said they were correct she found the entry.

There is also a remote possibility that a different Barmen is where your great grandfather was born: There are two places called Barmen: one is now part of Wuppertal, the other is part of Jülich. Both are in Rheinland, but Schwelm is next to Wuppertal, so it seems rather unlikely that your great grandfather was born in Jülich when his mother was born in Schwelm. Also, the Barmen belonging to Jülich seems a bit small to be called "Stadt" (city).

Good luck,

Heike

[gkeller]

Re: How to find a birth certificate? (Keller Family)

Hello Heike,

Thank you for all the answer.

I think it's best that you order the film from the family history center, and look up the name and address of the person who submitted it. Maybe there was also a mistake when the data were transferred into the database? In any case, contacting that person might be interesting, because he might have information about many more ancestors.

I think no because I know who submitted this data, is an uncle of mine.
Although he have some correct data the birthplace he tells me by phone that Heinrich August Keller was born in Barmen.

In case you cannot find the person who submitted the record, maybe Standesamt Wuppertal can look for the entry not just on the particular date mentioned, but from April to September (or they have a name list for the entire year, than it should be easy). Maybe the date from familyhistory is just one day off, as it seems to be with the death. Sometimes people working at Standesamt also oversee an entry, even though it exists; this happened to me once, the Standeamt employee asked me to check the data again as she couldn't find the entry, but when I checked them and said they were correct she found the entry.

I did it first I asked to search for the exact data, after this I ask to search between April and September. So I do not write in German yet ( as you see ) with a litle help from some friends from Germany I wrote the letters.

There is also a remote possibility that a different Barmen is where your great grandfather was born: There are two places called Barmen: one is now part of Wuppertal, the other is part of Jülich. Both are in Rheinland, but Schwelm is next to Wuppertal, so it seems rather unlikely that your great grandfather was born in Jülich when his mother was born in Schwelm. Also, the Barmen belonging to Jülich seems a bit small to be called "Stadt" (city).

I sent an e-mail to Jülich they told me to search in Wuppertal, you can read the answer here:

Sehr geehrter Herr Keller,

Gemeint ist der heutige Wuppertaler Stadtteil Barmen, nicht der kleine Ort bei Jülich. Wenden Sie sich bitte an das Stadtarchiv oder das Standesamt in Wuppertal. E-Mail: stadtarchiv(at)stadt.wuppertal.de

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
i.A.
Dr. Horst Dinstühler
Stadtarchiv Jülich

And the answer from Wuppertal:

Sehr geehrter Herr Keller,

Unter den von Ihnen angegebenen Daten ,konnte ich die Geburtsurkunde nicht ermitten.
Bitte wenden Sie sich an das Standesamt Jülich hin, dort wird auch der Stadtteil "Barmen " geführt!
Standesamt Jülich

Große Rurstr. 17
52428 Jülich
Tel (02461) 63224
E-Mail info(at)juelich.de


Mit freundlichen Grüssen
Der Standesbeamter
gez.
Gabriele Haase

So I ask to search between April and September and the answer:

Sehr geehrter Herr Keller,

Die Geburtsurkunde konnte von mir nicht ermittelt werden. Wo, war bitte der Heiratsort und Sterbeort?
An diesen Urkunden müssen Geburtsdatum-und ort erwähnt sein.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
gez. Gabriele Haase

I don't really know how to ask this again, someone could help me to wrote a letter to Wuppertal asking again to search for my great grandfather?

Thank you in advice.

Sincerely,
Guilherme Inocêncio Keller

[Xtine]

RE: How to find a birth certificate? (Keller Family)

Hello Guilherme,

perhaps there are some church entries. For the "evangelische Kirche Barmen" (protestant church) look here:

https://www.wuppertal-online.net/ortsgemeinde_target.php?getgID=20&?h103

There you will find the "Gemeindeanschrift" (parish adress).
If they don't have the church books, they can tell you in which archive they are.

Good luck!
Christine

[heike_b]

RE: How to find a birth certificate? (Keller Family)

Hello Guilherme,

I'm sorry that my suggestions contributed nothing new for you.

If you want to write again to the Standesamt, I think you should mention what your uncle's source is for the information that your great-grandfather was born in Barmen. Does he have any documents, or did he just hear where his grandfather was born from his parents? Could it be that he moved to Barmen at a very young age, but was born elsewhere?

One more idea I have is to write to Wuppertal and ask if a "Melderegister" (register of residents) for Barmen exists for 1888. If it does, one could check if your great-great-grandparents lived in Barmen when your great-grandfather was born. The email is meldeamt@stadt.wuppertal.de.

Or try Christine's suggestion.

Best regards,

Heike

[gkeller]

re: How to find a birth certificate? ( Keller Family )

Hello,

I sent the e-mail to the protestant church and here is the Answer:

Sehr geehrter Herr Keller,

zu Ihrer E-Mail vom 22.10.2007 teile ich ihnen mit, dass weder die Eheschließung noch der Sterbefall Ihres Urgroßvaters Heinrich August Keller zu den von Ihnen angegebenen Zeiten beim Standesamt in Schwelm beurkundet wurde.

In Ihrer E-Mail schreiben Sie, dass Sie im Besitz der Urkunden sind. Welches Standesamt hat diese Urkunden ausgestellt? Es empfiehlt sich, dass Sie sich mit diesem Standesamt in Verbindung setzen, da über den Heiratseintrag bzw. den Sterbeeintrag der Geburtsort Ihres Urgroßvaters ermittelt werden kann.

Für weitere Fragen stehe ich zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichem Gruß
A. Göbel, Standesamt Schwelm

But in the Marriage and Death certificate just say Germany and mother, Dina Keller. I don't know what I need to do to found the birthplace of my great-grandfather.

Any help will be apprecciated.
Thank you indeed.

Sincerely,
Guilherme Inocêncio Keller

[gkeller]

RE: How to find a birth certificate? (Keller Family)

Hello,

If you want to write again to the Standesamt, I think you should mention what your uncle's source is for the information that your great-grandfather was born in Barmen. Does he have any documents, or did he just hear where his grandfather was born from his parents?

I guess he hear from someone of my family,
someone older that proprobably has died..

Could it be that he moved to Barmen at a very young age, but was born elsewhere?

I don't know, because my family members died "young", you know here in Brazil we have a short life than in Europa or North America.

One more idea I have is to write to Wuppertal and ask if a "Melderegister" (register of residents) for Barmen exists for 1888. If it does, one could check if your great-great-grandparents lived in Barmen when your great-grandfather was born. The email is meldeamt@stadt.wuppertal.de.

Great idea, I will do this! Thank you for the advice.

Thank you,
Guilherme Inocêncio Keller

[gkeller]

RE: How to find a birth certificate? (Keller Family)

Hello,

I sent an e-mail to Melderegister of Wuppertal here the answer:

I.A.
Dear Mr. Keller,

The reporting law for the state of North Rhine-Westphalia (NRW MG), as currently Current version stipulates that residents data when they are to meet the reporting responsibilities, authority is no longer needed, must be deleted.

The information you requested register information refers to a population of more than 50 years prior to the beginning of this calendar year from Wuppertal distorted or died.

According to § 11, paragraph 3 MG NRW-last sentence are separately stored and protected data and information from residents after the expiration of 50 years to erase.

For the above reasons, I am not in a position to the desired information to.
Yours

Dresen

More any idea? Thank you in advice.

Sincerely,
Guilherme Inocêncio Keller

[heike_b]

RE: How to find a birth certificate? ( Keller Family )

Hello Guilherme,

I'm sorry to hear about that law that their old Melderegister must be destroyed. It seems to differ by region; I just got information from a Melderegister of a city in Schleswig-Holstein from 1889 today.

Original von gkeller
Hello,

I sent the e-mail to the protestant church and here is the Answer:

Sehr geehrter Herr Keller,

zu Ihrer E-Mail vom 22.10.2007 teile ich ihnen mit, dass weder die Eheschließung noch der Sterbefall Ihres Urgroßvaters Heinrich August Keller zu den von Ihnen angegebenen Zeiten beim Standesamt in Schwelm beurkundet wurde.

In Ihrer E-Mail schreiben Sie, dass Sie im Besitz der Urkunden sind. Welches Standesamt hat diese Urkunden ausgestellt? Es empfiehlt sich, dass Sie sich mit diesem Standesamt in Verbindung setzen, da über den Heiratseintrag bzw. den Sterbeeintrag der Geburtsort Ihres Urgroßvaters ermittelt werden kann.

Für weitere Fragen stehe ich zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichem Gruß
A. Göbel, Standesamt Schwelm

But in the Marriage and Death certificate just say Germany and mother, Dina Keller. I don't know what I need to do to found the birthplace of my great-grandfather.

Any help will be apprecciated.
Thank you indeed.

Sincerely,
Guilherme Inocêncio Keller

I have some trouble understanding this. First, the email you quote is from Standesamt Schwelm, not from the protestant church. Also, it talks about your great-grandfather's marriage and death in connection with Schwelm, when only your his mother should be from Schwelm and he got married and died in Brasilia? Maybe you could also post your email to them, so that it is easier to understand their answer? It seems to me that there must have been a misunderstanding somewhere.

Best regards,

Heike

[gkeller]

RE: How to find a birth certificate? ( Keller Family )

Hello,
Thank you for the answer.

I have some trouble understanding this. First, the email you quote is from Standesamt Schwelm, not from the protestant church...

Right, sorry I have paste the wrong e-mail here.
Here is the answer from Sylvia.Bukowski(at)t-online.de (Protestant church)

Lieber Herr Keller, Schwelm gehört zu einer anderen Landeskirche, ich kann
Ihnen also leider nicht helfen. Alles Gute für Sie! Sylvia Bukowski

Okay, all this happens because I don't have sure where mine great-grandfather was born.

In the marriage and death certificates have only "BirthPlace: Germany" and mother "Dina Keller"(Single Mother)

Here is the data:
Casamento: 28 de Setembro de 1912 - Pedras Grandes, Santa Catarina, Brasil
Falecimento: 08 de Abril de 1938 - Lauro Müller, Santa Catarina, Brasil
(1st marriage, 2nd death)

The next post I will paste the letter that I send via e-mail to they.
Thank you in advice.

Guilherme Inocêncio Keller

[gkeller]

RE: How to find a birth certificate? ( Keller Family )

Hello,

Here is the letter that I sent to they:

Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,
ich stamme aus Criciuma, Santa Catarina, Brasilien.

Koennten Sie mir helfen, die Geburtsurkunde meines Urgrovaters zu finden?

Ich besitze die Heiratsurkunde und die Sterbeurkunde.
In der Heiratsurkunde ist angegeben: 28. September 1912, 24 Jahre
In der Sterbeurkunde ist angegeben: 8. April 1938, 49 Jahre
Könnten Sie daher bitte im Zeitraum von April bis September 1888 nach
der Geburtsurkunde suchen?

Folgende Daten konnte ich ueber seine Mutter finden:
Dina Keller
Geschlecht: weiblich
Geboren: 5. Mai 1867, evangelisch, in Schwelm, Westfalen, Preussen

Auch hier verweise ich auf die oben genannte Seite:

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/IGI/individual_record.asp?recid=100076413370&lds=1&region=8

Eventuell ist die Geburt Heinrich August Kellers in Ihren Aufzeichnen
registriert.
Ich wuerde mich freuen, wenn Sie eine Datenabfrage durchfuehren
koennten, um mir auf diese Weise zu helfen, meine Familiengeschichte
zu rekonstruieren.

Ich benoetige die Geburtsurkunde Heinrich August Keller, um einen
Antrag auf doppelte Staatsbuergerschaft stellen zu konnen. Es handelt
sich um das letzte fehlende Dokument.

Vielen Dank im Voraus fuer Ihre freundliche Unterstuetzung!
Ich freue mich ueber Hinweise jeder Art.

Mit freundlichen Gruessen,
Guilherme Inocêncio Keller

If has a misunderstood please tell me.

I want to they know this:

my great-grandfather born in Germany but where I don't have sure maybe Wuppertal how an uncle of mine said.

Him mother is Dina Keller and she was born in Schelwm.
He get married and dead here in Brazil.
I would like him birth certificate.

Thank you in advice.
More any tip will be welcome!

Sincerely,
Guilherme Inocêncio Keller

[heike_b]

Hello Guilherme,

regarding the answer from Standesamt Schwelm: I think you should write back to them and explain that your great-grandfather emigrated to Brazil and the marriage and death certificate you have are Brazilian ones and only state his country of birth, but not his city of birth. I would suggest to write something like this:

Sehr geehrte Frau Göbel,

vielen Dank für Ihre Antwort. Mein Urgroßvater Heinrich August Keller ist vor seiner Hochzeit nach Brasilien ausgewandert; die mir vorliegende (brasilianische) Heirats- und Sterbeurkunde geben nur sein Geburtsland (Deutschland), aber keinen Geburtsort an.

Nach Informationen eines Onkels von mir (die er auch in die Datenbank "familysearch" eingetragen hat) soll die Mutter von Heinrich August Keller, Dina Keller, in Schwelm geboren worden sein. Deshalb meine Idee, Heinrich August Keller könnte auch in Schwelm geboren worden sein. Laut den Altersangaben in der Heirats- und Sterbeurkunde müsste er zwischen April und September 1888 geboren worden sein. Ich wäre Ihnen dankbar, wenn Sie nachschauen könnten, ob seine Geburt in diesem Zeitraum in Ihren Unterlagen verzeichnet ist.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Guilherme Inocêncio Keller

Translation:

Dear Ms. Göbel,

thank you very much for your answer. My great-grandfather Heinrich August Keller emigrated to Brazil before his wedding; the (Brazilian) marriage and death certificate I have only state his country of birth (Germany), but not his city of birth.

According to information from an uncle of mine (which he also put into the database "familysearch"), the mother of Heinrich August Keller, Dina Keller, was born in Schwelm. Therefore my idea that Heinrich August Keller might also have been born in Schwelm. According to the ages stated in the marriage and death certificate, he should have been born between April and September 1888. I would be grateful to you if you could look if his birth is noted in your records in this period.

Sincerely,

Guilherme Inocêncio Keller

Regarding the answer you got from Sylvia Bukowski: She works for the protestant church in Wuppertal, so you could ask her to look in the church records for Barmen.

Another idea that came to my mind: Have you already checked if your great-grandfather is mentioned in passenger lists? I don't know what information is usually available about the passengers, and where to look for such lists, but maybe you could ask in this forum under "Auswanderung"?

Best regards,

Heike

[gkeller]

RE: How to find a birth certificate? ( Keller Family )

Hello Heike,
Thank you indeed for all these answers.

I sent the e-mail to Miss Göbel as you write to me ,and I sent an e-mail to Sylvia too. When I get the answer I will put here. Thank you for all the tips.

About the passenger lists mine great-grandfather arrived in Brazil in 1909, but I don't know the exactly month/day/ship. [ Probably he leaves via Bremen ].

Where I could look for these passenger lists?
What I should write to they?
Could you help me?

Thank you in advice.

Sincerely,
Guilherme Inocêncio Keller.

[heike_b]

Hello Guilherme,

I hardly know anything about passenger lists, except for the fact that they exist, also many old ones. I think you should try to ask your questions about them in this forum, under "Auswanderung" (emigration). Hopefully some people there should be able to help you.

Best regards,

Heike