Johan Stoderl

[plvcolin]

Die Suche betrifft das Jahr oder den Zeitraum: 1805-1825
Genaue Orts-/Gebietseingrenzung: Zetschen (Cecin) or Cham Bayern
Konfession der gesuchten Person(en): Catholic
Bisher selbst durchgeführte Internet-Recherche (Datenbanken):
Zur Antwortfindung bereits genutzte Anlaufstellen (Ämter, Archive):

Hello again!

Ich bin Amerikaner. Appreciate the help reading gothic script.

I am looking for the birth record of Johan Stoderl. I believe he was born about 1818. He is the son of Georg Stoderl und Margaretha Lang. I originally thought he was born in Zetschen (Cecin)...however on 1869 census...he is listed as being from Ghom (Cham?) Baiern. I have searched Zetschin book and have not found him. I am hoping one of you can find him.

Danke Sehr!
Colin

https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage/34904022/soap-tc_00192_census-1869-stare-sedlo-cp049_0020?x=-224&y=42&w=1373&h=543

https://www.portafontium.eu/register/soap-pn/bela-nad-radbuzou-13

[Huber Benedikt]

Good morning
I really think the origin of Johann is Cham /Bayern just opposite the border.
Cham is diocese Regensburg and unfortunately the parish books of this episcopate are not published yet.
So either you´ve to wait until they will publish (start of digitalization is promised in 2021) or somebody may look in the archive in Regensburg personally when they open again.(they are closed now cause of the corona disease)
So I fear you´re blocked in the moment

[tfndh]

Georg's death entry in Zetschen No. 7: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...54&w=632&h=259
Ausnehmer = retired farmer

https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage/30060211/bela-nad-radbuzou-12_0420-n?x=542&y=185&w=528&h=217

In this babtism entry for his son Michael in 1806 his wife is Margaretha Frascha(?) from Liebeswar/Libosvár. The entry on the next page maybe also belongs to him. The fathers name is Adam, but the mother and the house is the same.

https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage/30060211/bela-nad-radbuzou-12_0260-n?x=398&y=-6&w=529&h=217

In 1848 Barbara, a daughter of Georg has a child in Černá Hora. Her mother is Margaretha Lang from Troschelhammer.

It looks like Georg moved to Bavaria some time after 1806. His first wife died and he married again. Later he moved back again to Zetschen. I don't see any death entries for his first or second wife in Zetschen.

Did you recognize that Johann was a widower at the time of his marriage with Elisabeth Trüber?

[plvcolin]

Georg's death entry in Zetschen No. 7: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...54&w=632&h=259
Ausnehmer = retired farmer

https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage/30060211/bela-nad-radbuzou-12_0420-n?x=542&y=185&w=528&h=217

In this babtism entry for his son Michael in 1806 his wife is Margaretha Frascha(?) from Liebeswar/Libosvár. The entry on the next page maybe also belongs to him. The fathers name is Adam, but the mother and the house is the same.

https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage/30060211/bela-nad-radbuzou-12_0260-n?x=398&y=-6&w=529&h=217

In 1848 Barbara, a daughter of Georg has a child in Černá Hora. Her mother is Margaretha Lang from Troschelhammer.

It looks like Georg moved to Bavaria some time after 1806. His first wife died and he married again. Later he moved back again to Zetschen. I don't see any death entries for his first or second wife in Zetschen.

Did you recognize that Johann was a widower at the time of his marriage with Elisabeth Trüber?

No, I did not know. Do the records say he had a 1st wife?

It is too bad Regensburg is not yet digitalized. I'm sure it will be someday. I am reconstructing this family solely based on records. Nothing is remembered in the family about them.

Thanks again for helping,
Colin

[plvcolin]

Good morning
I really think the origin of Johann is Cham /Bayern just opposite the border.
Cham is diocese Regensburg and unfortunately the parish books of this episcopate are not published yet.
So either you´ve to wait until they will publish (start of digitalization is promised in 2021) or somebody may look in the archive in Regensburg personally when they open again.(they are closed now cause of the corona disease)
So I fear you´re blocked in the moment

I trust your judgement. Will have to wait for digitalization.

Thanks again,
Colin

[tfndh]

No, I did not know. Do the records say he had a 1st wife?

It is too bad Regensburg is not yet digitalized. I'm sure it will be someday. I am reconstructing this family solely based on records. Nothing is remembered in the family about them.

Thanks again for helping,
Colin

The death entry for his first wife: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...24&w=667&h=262
Cause of death is Brand (high fever).

I found his entry in the Grundbuch: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...=3&w=644&h=262
He inherits the house from his deceased wife Elisabeth. The other heir is her mother Katharina Weniger. The house belonged to Stephan Weniger (+ October 28th 1844).
There is a reference to their marriage contract: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...62&w=548&h=225
Elisabeths maiden name is Mähner. It says Johanns father Georg is present when the contract is signed on January 20th 1844. So the death entry in Zetschen in 1842 isn't him??

There is also a marriage contract with Elisabeth Trüber: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...13&w=447&h=183

[plvcolin]

The death entry for his first wife: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...24&w=667&h=262
Cause of death is Brand (high fever).

I found his entry in the Grundbuch: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...=3&w=644&h=262
He inherits the house from his deceased wife Elisabeth. The other heir is her mother Katharina Weniger. The house belonged to Stephan Weniger (+ October 28th 1844).
There is a reference to their marriage contract: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...62&w=548&h=225
Elisabeths maiden name is Mähner. It says Johanns father Georg is present when the contract is signed on January 20th 1844. So the death entry in Zetschen in 1842 isn't him??

There is also a marriage contract with Elisabeth Trüber: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...13&w=447&h=183

Wow, this is interesting stuff. Can you provide a rough translation of the Grundbuch and marriage contract?

The 1st Elizabeth's father was Mähner...and mother was Katharina Weniger? Was Stephen Weniger a brother? Is there any clue to where 1st Elizabeth is from? Perhaps I can find record of her marriage to Johan.

Very strange about Georg Stoderl. I wonder if it's a different Georg? Perhaps a nephew?

Thank you for all of this extra research.

Colin

[tfndh]

Wow, this is interesting stuff. Can you provide a rough translation of the Grundbuch and marriage contract?

The 1st Elizabeth's father was Mähner...and mother was Katharina Weniger? Was Stephen Weniger a brother? Is there any clue to where 1st Elizabeth is from? Perhaps I can find record of her marriage to Johan.

Very strange about Georg Stoderl. I wonder if it's a different Georg? Perhaps a nephew?

Thank you for all of this extra research.

Colin

There is a marriage entry: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...56&w=987&h=402

Elisabeth is the illegitimate daughter of Katharina Mähner. Stephan Weniger is her stepfather. The house actually belonged to her mother. Elisabeth inherited the house from her grandparents Joseph Mähner and his wife Katharina according to her grandmothers testament (Grundbuch p. 163).
The most important points in the marriage contract are: Johann's father Georg is paying a dowry. Elisabeth is commiting the house to her husband.
Equally in the contract with Elisabeth Trüber. Elisabeth's father is paying a dowry. In case Johann dies without children the house will go to her.

I think it's possible that there is a confusion about Johann's father by the writer. The contract is only signed with "Stoderl groom's father".

I'm not really convinced by the Cham-theory. In the census the first two letters are "Gh", but the ending does not look like "am" if you compare it with the "am" from Adam. For me it looks something like Ghend. Maybe it's a misheard "Kemnath". This would match Johann's mother being from Troschelhammer Landgericht Kemnath.

[plvcolin]

There is a marriage entry: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...56&w=987&h=402

Elisabeth is the illegitimate daughter of Katharina Mähner. Stephan Weniger is her stepfather. The house actually belonged to her mother. Elisabeth inherited the house from her grandparents Joseph Mähner and his wife Katharina according to her grandmothers testament (Grundbuch p. 163).
The most important points in the marriage contract are: Johann's father Georg is paying a dowry. Elisabeth is commiting the house to her husband.
Equally in the contract with Elisabeth Trüber. Elisabeth's father is paying a dowry. In case Johann dies without children the house will go to her.

I think it's possible that there is a confusion about Johann's father by the writer. The contract is only signed with "Stoderl groom's father".

I'm not really convinced by the Cham-theory. In the census the first two letters are "Gh", but the ending does not look like "am" if you compare it with the "am" from Adam. For me it looks something like Ghend. Maybe it's a misheard "Kemnath". This would match Johann's mother being from Troschelhammer Landgericht Kemnath.

Probably not Ghent Belgium . I will have to wait until parish records are available for Torschelhammer and Cham. Thank you for your judgement. I wouldn't know where to begin.

I never knew any of this. Very interesting. I'm surprised how fast Johan remarried. His 1st wife dies in March 20 and he marries his 2nd wife May 13! Different culture back then.

Is George Stoderl listed as a witness for the 1844 marriage?!? Very strange.

Thanks again for the help,
Colin

[tfndh]

Is George Stoderl listed as a witness for the 1844 marriage?!? Very strange.

It's not Georg Stoderl but Georg Sandner. He also signed the marriage contract (2x) as Georg Sandner Namenschreiber (name writer) and Georg Sandner Richter in Altsattl und Zeug[e] (judge in Altsattl and witness)

[tfndh]

https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage/30060211/bela-nad-radbuzou-12_0260-n?x=398&y=-6&w=529&h=217

In 1848 Barbara, a daughter of Georg has a child in Černá Hora. Her mother is Margaretha Lang from Troschelhammer.

Hey,

I can solve the mystery of the undead Georg Stoderl after I looked at this entry from Johann's sister again. Here Georg is described as a weaver in Černá Hora no. 6. Johann's father is also described as inhabitant or cottager. So it can't be the Georg Stoderl in Zetschen, who is a farmer. Why would he suddenly move to Bavaria if he owns a farm anyway.

This is the death entry for Georg in Černá Hora in 1848 (2nd one, the first is Barbara's illegitimate son): https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...31&w=642&h=264

The are actually two Georg Stoderl from Zetschen. One born in 1767, the other in 1780. (The register for births in Újezd Svatého Kříže 06 is in 04)

[plvcolin]

Hey,

I can solve the mystery of the undead Georg Stoderl after I looked at this entry from Johann's sister again. Here Georg is described as a weaver in Černá Hora no. 6. Johann's father is also described as inhabitant or cottager. So it can't be the Georg Stoderl in Zetschen, who is a farmer. Why would he suddenly move to Bavaria if he owns a farm anyway.

This is the death entry for Georg in Černá Hora in 1848 (2nd one, the first is Barbara's illegitimate son): https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...31&w=642&h=264

The are actually two Georg Stoderl from Zetschen. One born in 1767, the other in 1780. (The register for births in Újezd Svatého Kříže 06 is in 04)

Hmmm....now I am confused. Here's where I am at:

Georg Stoderl (abt. 1770 - 18 Dec 1841) - dies in Zetschen
Margaretha Fraspa (1st wife from Liebeswar)
Margaretha Lang (2nd wife from Troschelhammer; born abt. 1767)

Children of Georg & Margaretha Fraspa:

• Elisabeth (born: 2 Nov 1790 in Zetschen)
• Barbara (born: 26 Jun 1793 in Zetschen)
• Adam (born: 18 Jan 1796 in Zetschen)
• Elisabeth (born: 2 May 1798 in Zetschen)
• Barbara (born: 10 Dec 1803 in Zetschen)
• Michael (26 Oct 1806 - 7 Nov 1806)

Children of Georg & Margaretha Lang:

• Johann (abt. 1818 - 6 Jan 1900) - he's buried in Minnesota
• Barbara?

Children of Johann Stoderl & Elizabeth Trüber:

• Adam (15 Aug 1847 - 7 Apr 1930)
• Katherine (11 Jan 1850 - ?)
• Anna (15 Oct 1854 - 27 Nov 1931)
• Barbara (28 Jun 1860 - 11 Jul 1860)
• https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...92&w=658&h=260
• Lorenz (18 Jul 1863 - 24 Oct 1924)
• https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...98&w=790&h=312
• Barbara (10 Dec 1868 - 31 Dec 1868)
• https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...45&w=658&h=260

Lorenz & both of the Barbara entries list Georg Stoderl at N.7 Zetschen.
Johan & Elizabeth's marriage entry shows Georg living at N.13 Zetschen.

https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage/30068655/stare-sedlo-tc-11_0220-o?x=-33&y=248&w=975&h=385

So we have conflicting information. I don't know what is correct. I wish the German archives were available.

Thank you for all of the work you've done.
Colin