Looking for the birth of Michell Gronert , born 28. mars 1829 i Bayern, Tyskland

[bjornlokken]

Hi Svenja ....I delete the tread ( topic ) because i have posted the same her , and i would not do anything wrong and make complications for those as beeing so kind trying to help me . https://forum.ahnenforschung.net/sho...d.php?t=227077

I will try to find Obit's for Michel Gronert and his wife Mary Anne Menges

The couple on FAG ( Find a grave ) https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...y-ann-groenert

I have not search for their marriage in FS yet , but i will try to do that during the day , but i find it a little complicate to use

Best regards from Bjørn in Norway

[bjornlokken]

We did find this Obit for Michael Gronert today , and surprise he was married two times

It's a lot of information in this Obit , but i dont know how to put it in this tread as a attachment .

Comrad Michael Gronert was born in Gauhern in Bavaria in Germany 29 march 1829 .

His first marriage was in 1852 to Magdeline Knapp

His second marriage was in 1865 to ( they named her Anna Anthony ) AKA Mariarine Menges - Mary Ann Menges ( Mingus )

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/114397165/the-advance/

The Obit confirm also what i thought that Mariarine Menges 19 years old from Baden who migrate to America in 1856 together with a man named Michel Menges 23 years old was the brother to Mariarine Menges .

This Michel Menges settles and starts a family in Prairie du Chien Township in Crawford County in Wisconsin .

1860 census https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer...e&pId=36037102

1870 census https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer...e&pId=14787128

Mary Ann Menges and her husband Michel Gronert settle in Eastman Township in Crawford County. One finds these two families also in the 1880 census.

The very best regards from Bjørn in Norway

[gki]

Great find!

"Comrad" should be "Conrad". "Gauhern" does not exist in Bavaria, as far as I was able to find. Maybe somebody with experience in US mangling of German place names will have an idea.

Did you find the entries for the 2 marriages? Marianne Menges was apparently married before. Finding her first marriage would be important too. And/or the one for her brother.

[Gastonian]

Hi gki:


Actually, "Comrad" should be "Comrade" (as in German "Komrade") - this was an official notice by an organization of veterans of the Civil War about one of their members or "comrades" who had died.


"Gauhern" doesn't make any sense in American English, either. The pronunciation would be with a hard G, so in German it would probably sound like Gohern or Kohern


Regards


--Carl-Henry

[Gastonian]

Hello:


For Michael Menges, there is a death certificate in Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui...00569090:61442) which gives his father's name as also Michael and his mother's name as Catharine Schmart. There is also a passport application (https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui...ew/168102:1174) in which he states that he was born in Baden on 13 February 1833 (unfortunately does not state the exact place). He first came to the U.S. in 1849 on the Isabella from Le Havre and became a U.S. citizen in 1855; he must then have returned to Germany to bring his sister with him to America.


So we are looking for a Michael Menges and wife Catharina (nee Schmart? Schwartz?) in Baden who had children Michael in 1833 and Maria Anna in about 1837.


Regards


--Carl-Henry


Edit to add: but in a county history published in 1884, Michael Menges was said to be the son of a John N. Menges:



Michael Menges, of the firm of Schumann & Menges, brewers, is the son of John N. Menges. He was born at Baden, Germany, Feb. 13, 1833, and came to the United States in 1849. He learned the carpenter trade at Philadelphia, being employed in that business until the fall of 1855, when he returned to Germany. The following spring he again came to this country, settling in Prairie du Chien, where he was soon extensively engaged as contractor and builder. He also kept hotel for three years. In 1870, he formed a partnership with Theodore Schumann in the brewing business, under the firm name of Schumann & Menges, which has continued up to the present time. This brewery produces 6,000 barrels of beer annually. Mr. Menges is one of the most energetic, pushing business men of the city. Outside of his brewing business he is still engaged in contracting and building, and has just closed the contract for building the basement of the addition to the College of the Sacred Heart, at this place. Mr. Menges was elected sheriff of Crawford county for the term of 1867-8, was coroner in 1862, and township treasurer in 1870. He is the present efficient chief of the Prairie du Chien fire department, and superintendent of the Prairie du Chien Mechanical, Agricultural & Driving Park Association. He was married at Prairie du Chien, May 16, 1858, to Catharine, daughter of Peter Schmitz. She was born in Prussia and emigrated to this county in 1853. Mr. and Mrs. Menges have had ten children, seven girls and three boys, seven of whom are living --- Mary, wife of Otto A. Watzke, of McGregor, Iowa; Elizabeth, wife of William Werder, also of McGregor; Frank, Minnie, Edward, Theodore and Emma. Ida died aged eleven years; Fannie died aged three years; Susanna died in infancy.(from http://www.usgenweb.info/wicrawford/books/chap33b.htm)

[gki]

Hi Carl-Henry!

Actually, "Comrad" should be "Comrade" (as in German "Komrade") - this was an official notice by an organization of veterans of the Civil War about one of their members or "comrades" who had died.

Too bad, I was hoping for a second given name for increased plausibility. It's "Kamerad" in German.

"Gauhern" doesn't make any sense in American English, either. The pronunciation would be with a hard G, so in German it would probably sound like Gohern or Kohern

Maybe it is possible to find an alternative spelling in the marriage documents.

[gki]

Hello:


For Michael Menges, there is a death certificate in Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui...00569090:61442) which gives his father's name as also Michael and his mother's name as Catharine Schmart. There is also a passport application (https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui...ew/168102:1174) in which he states that he was born in Baden on 13 February 1833 (unfortunately does not state the exact place).

"Baden" can be a town (today: Baden-Baden) as well as the duchy of the time.

Edit to add: but in a county history published in 1884, Michael Menges was said to be the son of a John N. Menges:

"John N." would quite possibly be "Johann Nepomuk" in German, likely pointing to a Catholic background.

[bjornlokken]

Thank you for all great find's .

The biographi og Michel Menges - good find .

I think the death certificate is acording to one of Mechel Menges and his wife ; Catherine Schwartz daughter ; Wilhelmina ??? she died almost 81 years old in 11 november 1943 .

I think Michel Menges and his sister Maria Anna father was John N. Menges from the biographic .

Will try looking for Marianne Menges first unknown marriage according to GKI she apparently married before Michel Gronert . And also the one for her brother Michel Menges

The only way to look is Family Search, but it's much more complicated to find info about Maria Anna Menges than Michel Menges

According to some Public Family trees on Ancestry Michel Menges was born 13 Feb 1833 in Rothenberg, Odenwaldkreis, Hesse, Germany

Does this makes any sence ?

https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/1030/?name=Michel_Menges&birth=1833_germany_3253&count=50&types=rt

Michael Menges tree ;

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/13561716/person/100173425730/facts

Michel Menges on FAG - Sources on the right side of the page on FAG

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/98501549:60525?ssrc=pt&tid=13561716&pid=100173425730

And here is his Obit and the year when Michel Menges got married to Catherine in 1858 . OBIT in 3 part's

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/13490725/michael-menges/photo

And if i search for Johann Nepomuk - i only got one from Germany - the rest ( 250 ) is from Austria

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/22989250:9870?tid=&pid=&queryId=2f67bd4d7e501aff9ce32f7d509e0b9f&_phsrc=bRa88&_phstart=successSource

The very best regards from Bjørn in Norway

[Gobelius]

Hallo zusammen,

Der gesuchte Herkunftsort könnte Gänheim in Unterfranken im Bundesland Bayern sein. Dort gab und gibt es, wie auch in den umliegenden Dörfern Familien mit Namen Gröner, Grönert und noch öfter Krönert. Im fraglichen Zeitraum sind auch Grönert aus dem Ort ausgewandert (oder haben zumindest 1849 den Antrag hierzu gestellt).

Gewissheit kann letztlich nur die Auffindung des fraglichen Eintrages im Taufmatrikel bringen. Ich bin gerne bereit, bei meinem nächsten Besuch im Diözesanarchiv Würzburg nachzusehen und dann hier mitzuteilen, ob meine Vermutung richtig ist.

Here is the longer version in English for Bjørn:

I think Carl-Henry's reference to Lower Franconia could lead to the goal.

“Gauhern in Bavaria” could be the village Gänheim in Bavaria, located in Lower Franconia. Gänheim belongs since 1978 to the City of Arnstein. The name of this village was often distorted beyond recognition (for example in US ship passenger lists and even in German sources of the 19th century.

In Gänheim/Gaenheim and the surrounding villages the family name Grönert, Gröner and more often Krönert was and is still to be found today. I myself have many ancestors in this village, but no Grönert/Krönert.

There were also Grönert emigrants from Gänheim during the period in question.
In 1849 Stephan Grönert from Gänheim had several so-called "Schuldnertermine” (debtors' appointments). Before the officially permitted departure, claims against the emigrants had to be registered at these dates so that they did not leave behind any debts. Only the adult head of the family is named in this source, therefore unknown if other family members left with him.

Maybe I can check in the diocesan archive in Würzburg in the near future whether my assumption is correct. I'll report back when I have a result.

Greetings from Lower Franconia

[Gastonian]

Hei Bjørn:


There is one important piece of information from the news story on their 60th wedding anniversary in your last link: they were married in St. Gabriel's Church by a Father Abbelia. St. Gabriel's Church is one of the two Catholic churches in Prairie du Chien, so this confirms gki's suspicion that Michael Menges was Catholic - and his father "John N." may thus very well have been "Johannes Nepomuk".


Rothenberg in the Odenwaldkreis does not make sense - back then that was in the grand duchy of Hessen-Darmstadt (and Protestant) rather than in one of the Catholic parts of the grand duchy of Baden. However, it is only 6 km from Eberbach, which was in the grand duchy of Baden and had Catholics - in fact, the Catholic parish church in Eberbach is named St. Johannes Nepomuk. And, according to the casualty lists for World War I, there were indeed men named Menges living in Eberbach around 1890.


There may be ways to search for Catholics in Eberbach in the 1830s in the relevant state archive (Landesarchiv Baden-Württemberg), but I am not an expert in this area.



MvH


--Carl-Henry

[Liese70794]

Dear Björn,

there is also a familytree in familysearch

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/9F3N-WH3

stating the birth of Anna Maria Menges in 1836 and a Michael Menges in 1833 who died in 1923 in Prairie de Chien.
Their fathers name is here Johann Nicolaus Menges. This family obviously lived in Rauenberg which is a town in now Baden-Württemberg and formerly in the grand duchy of Baden.

May be this also helps with your search.

Best regards

Liese70794

[gki]

The books for Eberbach seem to be online:

http://www.landesarchiv-bw.de/plink/?f=4-1120283

The books for Rauenberg seem to be online at familysearch, but you need to go to one of their centers to look at them.

[bjornlokken]

Dear Björn,

there is also a familytree in familysearch

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/9F3N-WH3

stating the birth of Anna Maria Menges in 1836 and a Michael Menges in 1833 who died in 1923 in Prairie de Chien.
Their fathers name is here Johann Nicolaus Menges. This family obviously lived in Rauenberg which is a town in now Baden-Württemberg and formerly in the grand duchy of Baden.

May be this also helps with your search.

Best regards

Liese70794

Thank you everybody for writing to me in English - It's very appricated

Thank you Liese - Awesome

For my archive ( my own sake and system ) ;

MARIA ANNA MENGES TREE https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pe...tails/9F3N-WH3

JOHANN NIKOLAYS MENGES

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/sources/9KFS-K53

MARIA MAGDALENA FISCHER

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NV7Q-GHF

IS IT POSSIBLE TO FIND THIS RECORDS IN THE GERMAN CHURCH BOOK'S ? or do anybody know anybody who live nearby this place and could go to the archives and take some pics of the church books ?

THE WEDDING TO JOHANN NIKOLAYS MENGES and MARIA MAGDALENA FISCHER IN 1821

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J4TR-NPP

THE BIRTH OF MARIA ANNA MENGES

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/sources/9F3N-WH3

And is it possible to find the birth to ;

MARIA MAGDALENA FISHER https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NV7Q-GHF

JOHANN NIKOLAYS MENGES 18 June 1797 if he was born in Rauenberg, Wiesloch, Heidelberg, Baden, Deutschland . His parents https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pe...tails/9KFS-K53 was married 8 june 1795 in Rotenberg, Wiesloch, Baden, Germany so i sepose / guess Johann Nikolaus was born there too .

Thank you everybody beeing so kind and for your contrbution's to solve tis case - love you all .

My mailadress is ; bjoernler@live.no please feel free to send me email .

Best regards from Bjørn in Norway

[Gobelius]

Hallo zusammen,

Nochmal zurück zum Ausgangspunkt der Anfrage: Herkunftsort „Gauhern“ des Michael Grönert, geb. am 28. März 1829 in Bayern?
Ich habe im Diözesanarchiv nachgesehen, ob es einen passenden Eintrag im Taufmatrikel des von mir vermuteten Geburtsortes Gänheim gibt (siehe # 24)

Taufmatrikel, S. 69 [1829]:
Michael, 2. Kind des Michael Grönert, Bauer, katholisch, Gänheim Hsnr. 1, und der Dorothea geb. Klühspies. Geburt: 24. März 1829 abends 10 Uhr. Taufe: 25. März in Gänheim. Taufpate: Michael Ziegler, ledig von Gänheim.

Familienbuch nach Hausnummern, S. 139 = „Hausnummer 70 - jetzt Hsnr. 1“
Dort - unter den genannten Eltern, deren Eheschließung am 15. April 1817 erfolgte - war Michael Grönert das dritte von vier Kindern und als Geburtsdatum steht hier – abweichend vom Taufeintrag - der 28. März 1829. Seine Firmung und Kommunion waren 1842. Ein Sterbedatum ist nicht vermerkt.
Michael hatte eine Schwester und zwei Brüder. Der von mir erwähnte Stephan Grönert, der 1849 einen offiziellen Antrag auf Genehmigung seiner Auswanderung gestellt hatte, war sein älterer Bruder.

Taufmatrikel, S. 55 [1824]:
Stephanus, 2. Kind [!] des Michael Krönert, Bauer, katholisch, Gänheim Hsnr. 1, und der Dorothea geb. Klühspies von Müdesheim. Geburt: 31. Mai 1824 um 2 Uhr Nachmittag. Taufe: 31. Mai 1824 in Gänheim. Im Familienbuch ist kein Sterbedatum vermerkt.

Für mich ist damit so gut wie sicher, dass Gänheim in Unterfranken der gesuchte Ort „Gauhern“ ist. Vielleicht gibt es im Staatsarchiv Würzburg Akten zu den genannten Auswanderungen. Außerdem ist es gut möglich, dass in Unterlagen der Gemeinde hierzu etwas vermerkt ist. Ich werde dort gelegentlich nachsehen, das kann aber dauern.

Hello Bjørn:

Back to the starting point of the query: Place of origin "Gauhern" of Michael Grönert, born on March 28, 1829 in Bavaria?

Würzburg Diocesan Archives: Parish of Gänheim, Baptism register, p. 69 [1829]:
Michael, 2nd child of Michael Grönert, farmer, Catholic, Gänheim Hsnr. 1, and Dorothea nee Klühspies. Birth: March 24, 1829 at 10 p.m. Baptism: March 25 in Gänheim. Godfather: Michael Ziegler, single from Gänheim.

Family book by house numbers, p. 139 = "House number 70 - now Hsnr. 1"
There - among the parents named, whose marriage took place on April 15, 1817 - Michael Grönert was the third of four children and the date of birth here - deviating from the baptismal entry - is March 28, 1829.

Michael had a sister and two brothers. The Stephan Grönert I mentioned, who had submitted an official application for permission to emigrate in 1849, was Michael's older brother.
Baptism register, p. 55 [1824]:
Stephan, 2nd child [!] of Michael Krönert, farmer, Catholic, Gänheim Hsnr. 1, and Dorothea née Klühspies from Müdesheim [village near Arnstein].

For me it is almost certain that Gänheim in Lower Franconia is your place “Gauhern”.
Perhaps there are files on the mentioned emigrations in the Wuerzburg State Archives. In addition, it is quite possible that there is something noted about in documents of the municipality However, it may be spring before I can check there occasionally.

I will send you some copies and a compilation of the data directly by email tomorrow.

Greetings from Lower Franconia

[animei]

Birth of Michael Menges in Rotenberg: http://www.landesarchiv-bw.de/plink/?f=4-1227067-161
Sister Maria Anna: http://www.landesarchiv-bw.de/plink/?f=4-1227067-183