Hamburg Staatsachiv Downloading Index

[Stanley Who]

Die Suche betrifft das Jahr oder den Zeitraum: 1900-1910
Genaue Orts-/Gebietseingrenzung: Hamburg
Konfession der gesuchten Person(en): Marriages
Bisher selbst durchgeführte Internet-Recherche (Datenbanken):
Zur Antwortfindung bereits genutzte Anlaufstellen (Ämter, Archive): Staatarchive

Hello All,
not sure if this is the correct Forum for this but it does involve Hamburg.

I have downloaded two Index's (Generalregister Heiraten) from the Hamburg Staatsarchiv and they have taken an extremely long time (over 1.5hrs) to download.
Is this normal or do others have an issue with downloading the pdf files from there? Or am I not doing something correctly?

I know the Internet speeds here may be slower than what may be in the EU but at this rate I'll get my pension before I find the next ancestor, being at the other end of the world may be it takes a long time to get here.

Hopefully someone may know what the issue is.

Regards and Thanks
Jan

[AnDoBe]

Hello Jan,
in Germany it takes likewise up to 10 minutes to download a file from Hamburg State Archive because of the large file size.
I've downloaded most of them. Please feel free to express whom you are looking for. I will have a look.
Regards
Anja

[Stanley Who]

Hello Jan,
in Germany it takes likewise up to 10 minutes to download a file from Hamburg State Archive because of the large file size.
I've downloaded most of them. Please feel free to express whom you are looking for. I will have a look.
Regards
Anja

Thanks Anja,

I managed to down load two indexes which took a long time one was an hour and a half and the other over two hours but could not find the marriage of my Great-Grandparents that I was looking for. They are,

Carl Franz TROMP (B.2 Mai 1881-Fischhausen, Ost Pr. D.11 Jan 1957-Harburg)
&
Elisabeth, gbn WILLIG ( B.?-D.?)

They had two sons that I know & found,
Franz Carl TROMP (B.18 Apr 1909-Harburg, D.8 Jun 1971-Harburg) my Opa
&
Heinrich Karl Friedrich TROMP (B. abt 1914-Harburg, D.12 Feb 1915-Harburg)

The story my father told me was that Carl Franz Tromp's father, Carl TROMP (b?-d?) left Fishhausen after his wife & mother of Carl Franz, Henrietta SCHACK (B.abt 1850, D.12 Jun 1891-Fischhausen Ost Pr) and came to Harburg when Carl Franz was young.
On Carl Franz Tromp death cert.,(1957) father is not noted (left blank/crossed out) and his mother is noted as Johanne Charlotte TROMP (no gebornen name) zuletzt wohnhaft in Fischhausen.
It could be that Carl Tromp remarried after the death of Henrietta but have not found any marriage in Harburg or in Fichhausen.
Also can not find death of Carl TROMP or Elisabeth WILLIG.

If you are able to help me, that would be gratefully appreciated.
Regards
Jan Tromp

[AnDoBe]

Hello Jan,
I have started to check the registers of death but I haven’t found the death of Carl Tromp or Elisabeth Willig so far. But what I have found for the name TROMP in the register of deaths (the first three entries you can find on Ancestry). Because of Tromp is not a common name in Harburg, all these people might be relatives of you:

Heinrich Karl Friedrich Tromp, Arbeitersohn (working-class son?), died in 1915, Standesamt Harburg, record number 279/1915 (you already know).

Elisabeth Tromp, girl, died in 1927, Standesamt Harburg, 812/1927.

Erna Anni Müller, née Tromp, worker, catholic, died in 1936, Standesamt Harburg-Wilhelmsburg I, 133/1936.
Maybe a sister of Franz Karl Tromp? Because she was born in Harburg in 1910 (see death certificate on Ancestry).

https://www.ancestry.de/interactive/60505/43775_332%5E5%5E11836-00139?pid=1719201098&backurl=https://search.ancestry.de/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D60505%26h%3D1719201098%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true

Erna Anni was married in 1932 (Standesamt Harburg-Wilhelmsburg I, 628/1932). Her Husband: Kurt Otto Müller, worker. The marriage was divorced. Maybe this man was her ex-husband, who has died in Neuengamme concentration camp in 1943:

https://www.ancestry.de/interactive/60505/43774_332%5E5%5E10723-00284?pid=1658966378&backurl=https://search.ancestry.de/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DPvB367%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Dhamburgdeaths%26gsfn%3Dkurt%2520otto%26gsln%3Dm%25C3%25BCller%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln_x%3D1%26cp%3D0%26qh%3DrmDvGSBP5zMcknJTRWHs7A%253D%253D%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26redir%3Dfalse%26uidh%3Dyvg%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D34%26fh%3D0%26h%3D1658966378%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=PvB367&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

Marie Elisabeth Düring, née Tromp, died 1.1.1952, Standesamt Harburg, 19/1952

Anna Maria Trunz, née Tromp, died 9.11.1952, Standesamt Harburg, 1355/1952
She has married Gustav Adolf Erdmann Trunz in Fischhausen in 1904:

https://search.ancestry.de/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=PvB373&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=gluhessen&gsln=tromp&gsfn_x=1&gsln_x=1&cp=0&new=1&rank=1&redir=false&uidh=yvg&gss=angs-d&pcat=34&fh=11&h=908008097&recoff=&ml_rpos=12

You can find death certificates of two sons on Ancestry.

Carl Franz Tromp, died 11.1.1957, Standesamt Harburg, 59/1957 (you already know)

Franz Karl Tromp, died 4.6.1971, Standesamt Harburg, 1181/1971 (you already know)

Marie Elisabeth Tromp (no maiden name stated), died 12.4.1979, Standsamt Harburg, 1001/1979
Maybe Elisabeth Willig if she has grown very old???


You have already seen following records on Ancestry? Some more persons with the name Tromp in Fischhausen:

https://www.ancestry.de/search/collections/gluhessen/?name=_tromp&count=50&name_x=1_1

I will check the remaining registers of death and marriages the next days.
Regards
Anja

[Stanley Who]

Hello Anja,

Heinrich Karl Friedrich Tromp is a son of Carl Tromp & Elisabeth Willig, but strange I can not find his birth cert.

Elisabeth Tromp, girl, died in 1927, I have looked at this a number of times and struggle to read and understand it all but with no mothers name or nee i can not workout where she belongs.

Erna Anni Müller, née Tromp, worker, catholic, died in 1936, this could be a possibility if birth or marriage cert give her parents, odd that she is catholic as I think all our lot are evangelich/lutheran, may be she converted to marry Kurt Otto Muller,
Karl Franz Tromp did have a sister "Grete" (I had totally forgotten about her until you mentioned sister) see death notice attached, but that is all I know of her.

Marie Elisabeth Düring, née Tromp, died 1.1.1952,
Anna Maria Trunz, née Tromp, died 9.11.1952,
I'm not sure about these two and don't think they are related but will have a dig around later.

Marie Elisabeth Tromp (no maiden name stated), died 12.4.1979,
May be Elizabeth Willing, I have asked some family members if they know her death but nobody seems to know. This is why I'm trying to find the marriage cert hoping it may shed some light. There is an Elizabeth Tromp that can be found in address & telephone books after 1945 that seems to be on her own, maybe they separated/divorced?

[AnDoBe]

Hello Jan,

I checked the Harburg registers of marriage from 1891 to 1934. Neither a marriage of Carl Tromp nor the marriage of Carl Franz Tromp and Elisabeth Willig is registered.

But I have found the marriage of Grete Tromp:
Margarete Elisabeth Tromp (worker) married Joachim Heinrich Witt (worker) in Harburg in 1927 - Standesamt Harburg-Wilhelmsburg I, record number 687/1927.
The marriage of Erna Anni Tromp and Kurt Otto Müller I have already mentioned. There are no further entries for the name Tromp until 1934.

Furthermore I checked the Harburg registers of death from 1891 to 1936. There is no Carl Tromp mentioned.

Regards
Anja

[AnDoBe]

There is an Elizabeth Tromp that can be found in address & telephone books after 1945 that seems to be on her own, maybe they separated/divorced?

Where did you find this?

[Stanley Who]

Where did you find this?

Hi Anja,

On Ancestry.com

https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=60778&h=66913189&tid=40964193&pid=19558496627&usePUB=true&_phsrc=oXt5483&_phstart=successSource

(not sure if I have copied the address correctly)

Elisabeth, not sure who she is but suspect to be Willing,
Franz, Arbiter, Freidrich-Naumann Str 6 (Opa) I visited there in 1979
Franz, Wachmann, Reinhold Str 24 (G,Opa) my father lived at no 28 before the war.
Frieda, have no idea who she is.

Jan

[Stanley Who]

Hello again,

I have spent the last few nights looking through the address books from Harburg, Hamburg and Hamburg districts from 1891 to 1911 and found no Tromp's listed at all until Franz Tromp (assumed Carl Franz G,Opa) first appears in Harburg in 1910.

Looking at Carl Franz (G,Opa) newspaper death notice, Grete is listed first so I am assuming she was born before Franz Karl (Opa). I know Franz Carl was born in Harburg in 1909. So was Grete born in Harburg or elsewhere?

Because I can not find a marriage for Carl Franz & Elisabeth Willing I am thinking they never married in Harburg-Hamburg region and maybe my fathers story is wrong and it was Carl Franz who moved to Harburg from Ost Preussen and not Carl Tromp (GG,Opa).

I may need to start ordering some certificates that are not available on Ancestry.

Regards
Jan

[AnDoBe]

Hello Jan,

Heinrich Karl Friedrich Tromp is a son of Carl Tromp & Elisabeth Willig, but strange I can not find his birth cert.

You cannot find it, because of the term of protection for birth certificates of 110 years in Germany. The original birth certificate is still kept at the Standesamt. 110 years after issuance it will be given to the archive and you will have free access.

Because I can not find a marriage for Carl Franz & Elisabeth Willing I am thinking they never married in Harburg-Hamburg region and maybe my fathers story is wrong and it was Carl Franz who moved to Harburg from Ost Preussen and not Carl Tromp (GG,Opa).

I share your opinion. So I checked some church books of Fischhausen. What I have found:

There is one entry for the name Karl Tromp in the funeral books between 1891 and 1942.
He died on 15 Feb 1904 in Fischhausen, occupation: worker, residence: Fischhausen, age: 68, cause of death: suicide by hanging, funeral: 20 Feb 1904 in Fischhausen.
His approximate birth date: 1836

You already know: Henriette Tromp, née Schack (or Schaak), died on 12 Jun 1891 in Fischhausen at the age of 41 because of tuberculosis.
Her approximate birth date: 1850

Both Karl and Henriette Tromp were not baptized in Fischhausen. There are no hits in the baptismal register. And they apperently did not get married in Fischhausen. There is no entry in the marriage register.

I assumed Anna Maria Trunz (née Tromp) to be a sister of Carl Franz Tromp. She was!
Anna Marie Tromp, born 11 Dez 1883, baptized 17 Feb 1884 in Fischhausen, father: worker Carl Tromp, mother: Henriette née Schack.

You have found Anna Augusta Tromp and Johanna Marie Tromp as sisters of Carl Franz Tromp. Both were not baptized in Fischhausen. Johanna Marie died at the age of 8 years and 3 month. Her birth date is approximate May 1878 and not 1883. In the funeral register the age of Anna Augusta is stated unknown.

As it seems Carl and Henriette Tromp moved to Fischhausen after their marriage and the birthes of at least two children.

I cannot find the marriage of Carl Franz and Elisabeth or the birth of Grete in the Fischhausen church books. You really need to order the marriage certificate of Grete. Maybe her place of birth is the place of marriage of her parents.

Regards
Anja

[Stanley Who]

Hello Anja,

I did have a good search through the church books from Fischhausen about 2004 using the microfilms from the Mormons and I could not find any record for Carl Tromp or Henrietta Schack baptisms or marriage, I found my old note book from the time and I can now see where I may have gone amiss.
I had noted the baptism for Anna Maria but must have confused my thoughts when I found the death for Johanna Marie and thought they are the same person as some of those entries do change spellings of the same person but did not take dates into consideration.
On my notes Johanna Maria died of Measels if I have that right, for Anna Augusta I have no cause of death, I can not remember if a cause of death was noted or I could not workout what it said and never recorded it, with her not having any age shown I presumed she may have been stillborn or only survived a few hours.
I have sent an email to my uncle in Hamburg who turns 80 this year to ask what he knows about Grete but do not have high hopes as I think he is suffering from the dreaded memory loss as one gets older.

kind regards
Jan

[Stanley Who]

I assumed Anna Maria Trunz (née Tromp) to be a sister of Carl Franz Tromp. She was!
Anna Marie Tromp, born 11 Dez 1883, baptized 17 Feb 1884 in Fischhausen,

Hello Anja,

I have been looking through the Harburg address books again and I can see there is certainly a connection with Tromp and Trunz which I think gives a much clearer picture of how the story should be.

1908- Gustav Trunz, Arbt, Marr Str,24, appears for the first time.
I guess this is when Gustav Trunz and Anna Marie Tromp move to Harburg.
1909- Karl Trunz, Arbt, Kl. Feld Str,15, appears, I think this is Gustav's father.
1910- Franz Tromp (Carl Franz,snr), Arbt, Kl. Feld Str,15, first appears and is living with Karl Trunz,
Over the next few years Franz Tromp moves a number of times to other address's before settling at Reinhold Str.28.
Gustav Trunz stays at Kl.Feld Str,15 for many years and then moves to Freidrich-Naumann Str. (1941) where there are other Trunz's living also at different numbers who I assume are children or grand children of Gustav.
Franz Carl Tromp, jnr. moved to Freidrich-Naumann Str after the war as their house in Rienhold Str was destroyed in a bombing raid.
So, I think Carl Franz Tromp, snr followed his sister to Harburg a couple of years after her and not the story my father told me.

Regards
Jan

[AnDoBe]

Hello Jan,

So, I think Carl Franz Tromp, snr followed his sister to Harburg a couple of years after her and not the story my father told me.

Your theory sounds plausible.

1909- Karl Trunz, Arbt, Kl. Feld Str,15, appears, I think this is Gustav's father.

I think that fits.
In the death certificate of Gustav Trunz his parents are recorded as Karl Ferdinand Trunz and Amalie Karoline Allenberg and in baptismal records as Carl Trunz and Amalie Allenberg.

Regards
Anja

[AnDoBe]

Hello Jan,

today I went spontaneously to Hamburg State Archive. Besides my own research I have found this:

Marie Elisabeth Düring, née Tromp, died 1.1.1952, Standesamt Harburg, 19/1952

She was a daughter of Karl Franz Tromp and Elisabeth Willig. B. 30.4.1914 Harburg - D. 1.1.1952 Harburg. Died by suicide. Married to Emil Hermann Willi Düring. Marriage: 4.12.1948 Harburg.
In her death certificate is stated that Elisabeth Willig was already dead. Last place of residence: Liebenburg (Landkreis Goslar).

Marie Elisabeth Tromp (no maiden name stated), died 12.4.1979, Standsamt Harburg, 1001/1979

She was the second wife of Karl Franz Tromp. B. 2.3.1900 Fischhausen - D. 12.4.1979 Harburg. Marriage: 19.3.1938 Harburg-Wilhelmsburg. The marriage was divorced.

Margarete Elisabeth Tromp (worker) got married to Heinrich Witt (worker) in Harburg in 1927 - Standesamt Harburg-Wilhelmsburg I, record number 687/1927.

Margarete Elisabeth Tromp, B. 21.2.1908 Harburg - D. 1986 Harburg [Standesamt Hamburg-Harburg, record number 458/1986]
Joachim Heinrich Witt, B. 14.4.1903 Marmstorf (Landkreis Harburg) - D. 6.12.1984 Harburg [Standesamt Hamburg-Harburg, record number 2440/1984]
Both had at least three daughters born in 1926, 1931 and 1942.

If you send me a personal message with your e-mail adress, I will send you the certificates.

Regards
Anja