Are these the same?

[Rieke]

Hello,
his name is Heinrich. The "name-prefix" Johann or Jost is not so important, hence it could have been mixed up.
Best regards

Hello Anna Sara Weingart,

I consider this a totally unsubstantiated and confusing statement. Jost or Johann is not simply a "name-prefix" as you call it - it is a name in its own right. "Heinrich" might have been his preferred call name but I'm sure you have come across two or three or even four first names where only one of them is the call name by which the bearer of this name is commonly known. But the other names are not prefixes or affixes


Liebe Gruesse
Rieke

[Rieke]

Hi all,


Ein klitzekleiner Korrekturvorschlag;
I suggest a tiny amendment;


Insead of "..... ABER Path ist...." it could simply read ".... DER Path ist ....."

The "d" is a bit smudged alright and one could read 'aber', but that does not make any sense in this kind of entry, does it?

Liebe Gruesse
Rieke

[Anna Sara Weingart]

...My question is would it be common for the son that was names Jost Heinrich to be listed as Johan Heinrich on baptism records of his children...?...

Hello,
his name is Heinrich. The "name-prefix" Johann or Jost is not so important, hence it could have been mixed up.
Best regards

[Xtine]

Hello Melissa,

for every new reading help please open a new thread.

I read:

... ist Heinrich Zaun u. Anna Catharinae ein Sohn gebohren
u. getaufet Johann David aber Path ist Johann David Zaun

There is no maiden name written.

[itsmemismelis]

Can anyone make out the mother's maiden name for the wife to Heinrich Zaun?
Melissa

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bdxxq3nywe4n8d5/Johann%20David%201747%20birth-%20J%20Heinrich%20Zaun.jpg?dl=0

[Rieke]

Hi Melissa,

So the mystery seems to be solved, somewhat
Just like I suspected, the February entry was indeed squeezed in retrospectively and the explanation that the priest forgot to strike out the January entry makes sense.

Liebe Gruesse
Rieke

[itsmemismelis]

Good Morning,
So before I wrote on here asking your opinion on the confusing situations we have come across I wrote a gentleman in Germany at the Landeskirchliches Archiv Kassel that has done research for me for his opinion. He had not responded and if he did I thought he was going to charge me so I was hoping you all could help. Well after a week I just heard back from him. I wanted to share what he had to say and what his explanation was (I'm posting it in German which is how it came and I am also posting the translated version):

"Unstimmigkeiten in alten Kirchenbüchern, wie Sie von Ihnen gefunden werden, lassen sich oft nicht mehr aufklären. Manche Fehler entstanden sicher bei der Abschrift von Daten, die nicht direkt nach der Taufe oder der Beerdigung ins Kirchenbuch eingetragen, sondern zunächst an anderer Stelle notiert wurden. Gerade in großen Pfarreien wie Kirchditmold hatte der Pfarrer oft Helfer in den einzelnen Dörfern, die für ihn die Daten festhielten. Erst nach Wochen oder Monaten wurden sie dann in das „offizielle“ Kirchenbuch übertragen. Diese Daten lieferten die Lehrer der Dorfschulen, die dem Pfarrer bis 1918 dienstlich unterstellt waren. Einige von diesen sogenannten „Nebenkirchenbüchern“, die von den Lehrern geführt wurden, sind erhalten. Wenn die Lehrer ihre Daten nicht in einem Buch, sondern auf losen Blättern an den Pfarrer weitergaben, kann es noch eher zu Verwechslungen gekommen sein. Meine Frau ist Pfarrerin und ich führe für sie die Kirchenbücher. Daher weiß ich aus eigener Erfahrung, wie leicht es zu Fehlern bei der Übertragung von Daten aus einzelnen Formularen in die Kirchenbücher kommen kann.
Eine solcher Fehler bei der Übertragung der Daten ist für den Taufeintrag des Matthias Zaun anzunehmen. Der Eintrag, der die Geburt auf den 15. Februar und die Taufe auf den 18. Februar 1753 datiert, ist nachträglich in das Kirchenbuch eingefügt. Es ist noch gut zu erkennen, wie er mühsam und in kleinerer Schrift zwischen die Zeilen der beiden Einträge oberhalb und unterhalb geschoben wurde. Daher ist anzunehmen, dass es sich um eine Korrektur des Eintrags handelt, in dem die Geburt auf den 2. Januar und die Taufe auf den 7. Januar 1753 datiert wurde. Vermutlich hat der Pfarrer nur vergessen, diesen Eintrag durchzustreichen und damit für ungültig zu erklären.
Auch Altersangaben sind in den älteren Kirchenbüchern gelegentlich ungenau. Es ist allerdings ungewöhnlich, dass sich der Pfarrer um 5 Jahre verrechnete, wie dies offenbar beim Beerdigungseintrag für Jost Henrich Zaun geschah.
Dem Traueintrag von 1736 ist zu entnehmen, dass J. Henrich Zaun die Witwe des Jonas (oder Johannes) Sachs aus Zierenberg heiratete. Um ihren Namen zu ermitteln, könnten Sie die Heiratseinträge etwa von 1725 bis 1735 nach Hinweisen auf Jonas Sachs und seine Ehefrau durchsehen.

Inconsistencies in old parish registers, as found by you, often can no longer explain. Some errors emerged safely at the copy of data that is not registered immediately after baptism or funeral in the church records, but were initially listed elsewhere. Especially in large parishes such Kirchditmold the pastor often had helpers in the villages that held the data for him. It was only after weeks or months they were then transferred church book in the "official". These data provided the teachers of village schools that had the priest until 1918 assumed business. Some of these so-called "side church books" that were conducted by the teachers are obtained. If the teachers pass on their data is not in a book, but on loose leaves to the parish priest, it may be even more likely to come to confusion. My wife is a pastor and I run for the church books. So I know from personal experience how easy it can come to church books to errors in transmission of data from individual forms.
One of such errors in the transmission of the data can be assumed for the baptismal record of Matthias fence. The entry dated the birth on February 15, and the baptism in the February 18, 1753 is subsequently inserted in the church book. It is still clearly visible as it was tedious and pushed above and below in smaller letters between the lines of the two items. Therefore it can be assumed that it is a correction of the entry in the birth on January 2 and the baptism was dated January 7, 1753. Presumably the minister just forgot to rule out this and thus be declared invalid.
Also ages are sometimes inaccurate in the older church records. However, it is unusual that the minister netted by 5 years, as apparently happened at the funeral for entry Jost Henrich fence.
The maid of entry of 1736's shows that J. Henrich married the fence of Jonah (or John) Sachs widow from Zierenberg. In order to determine its name, you could look through the marriage records about 1725 to 1735 for clues to Jonas Sachs and his wife."

Would love to hear what you guys think on the situation now. And again thank you for all your help!
Melissa

[Xtine]

Hallo Rieke,

ja ja, das weiß ich auch, aber es kann durchaus sein, daß Jost im Raum Kassel auch als Abkürzung für Josef benutzt wurde. Man weiß ja nie

Hans oder Henning sind z.B. auch die Abkürzungen von Johann, gleichzeitig aber auch eigenständige Namen.

[Rieke]

Hi Christine,

It IS to this day a name in the region around Kassel. I have an acquaintance who was christened Jost.

It seems to become even more popular these days, see here

Liebe Gruesse
Rieke

[Xtine]

Melissa,

I'm not sure, but it could be that Jost is an regional abbreviation for Joseph in the area of Kassel.
I will ask another member of this forum who is verry familiar with this region.

[gki]

How common was it for the age of someone to be off a few years on death records? Im attaching a copy of the death record of Jost Heinrich Zaun as well but the age is off by about 5 years, should of been about 78 years old (i know this is possible as i found it in another record but was it common?).

Hello Melissa,

this was _very_ common. There was no real reason to know your age and so people didn't.

[itsmemismelis]

Xtina,
Here is a little more to add to the complication haha...Im attaching pictures of docs to go along with it.

My 7th great grandfather (Christian Zaun or Zierenberg) had 5 boys, 3 had the first name Johan and 1 had the first name Jost. I am attaching a picture showing their baptism records.

My question is would it be common for the son that was names Jost Heinrich to be listed as Johan Heinrich on baptism records of his children (this is in Zierenberg)?

Why I'm asking is, I have not found a death record for him in Zierenberg, but have found a birth record of a child in Rothenditmold (same time frame) and a death record of him (Jost).

How common was it for the age of someone to be off a few years on death records? Im attaching a copy of the death record of Jost Heinrich Zaun as well but the age is off by about 5 years, should of been about 78 years old (i know this is possible as i found it in another record but was it common?).

Im attaching a document they say is the marriage record of Jost in Zierenberg 1736 but without having the wifes name and his full name, it is hard to tell. Look forward to your thoughts! Thanks in advance

Melissa

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u6zbo7uecy4sizb/Jost%20Heinrich%20Information%20Comparison.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pij41t89oafrta1/Jost%20Heinrich%20Information%20Comparison%202.jpg?dl=0

[Xtine]

Hello Melissa,

Are you a member of that site?

unfortunately not.

Did you check, if possibly there are 2 marriages (+/- 10 years?) Jost Heinrich Zaun with Anna Gertrud/t? Perhaps in other parishes nearby.

Once I found 3 brothers,
Johann Wilhelm Heinrich and Heinrich Johann Wilhelm and Wilhelm Heinrich Johann
All 3 were named Johann in the marriage entry 2 of them married a girl named Anna Maria and both named their sons >>>>>>>> Johann <-> Heinrich <-> Willheilm
It took me a lot of time to relate the childs correctly!

If there is no second marriage and no Mathias Zaun died in the next years and annother Mathias was born - then I think the priest made a mistake.
(The wine - you know ) But then we'll never know which entry is the right one.

[itsmemismelis]

Xtine,
These documents are from Archion. I have searched and searched through them for information. Are you a member of that site?
Melissa

[Xtine]

Hello Melissa,

is this churchbook online? So we could also take a look.

P.S. I think its on Archion